S04E18: THE DEATH OF HOLLY BARTLETT

Katie: Coming up on this episode of Crime Family.

Today I'm gonna be talking about a case that still has unanswered questions that we'll probably never really know the answers to, but I think about this case every time I'm in Halifax because it's just super strange. 

You know, how did it get there standing upright against this fence? Now it's very eerie when you see a picture of it just standing there. And I guess what it represents just gives you chills. It's this blind girl's walking cane propped up alone by the fence. It's just obviously not a natural scene. 

So it didn't make sense why she would've done what she did that night. Why did she go the wrong way and keep going when she was so close to her front door? Why crawl through a hole in the fence, blind or not, that's not something that you would be doing on your own on a cold March night.

Hey everyone. Welcome to Crime Family. I'm Katie and I'm here with Steph and AJ. Today I'm gonna be talking about a case that still has unanswered questions that we'll probably never really know the answers to, but I think about this case every time I'm in Halifax because it's just super strange. This is a story of Holly Bartlett. Holly Bartlett was a graduate student from Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. She was nearing the end of her master's degree in public administration. In March, 2010, she was celebrating the end of the semester on campus with some of her friends. Holly was 31 years old at this time. So March of 2010, I was also living in Halifax, going to university. I didn't go to Dalhousie, but I went to another university in the city nearby. But honestly, I spent more time on the Dal campus, I think, than I did at my own school. So it was just eerie in a way to think that we could've been at the same places at the same time, crossed paths, but not...

AJ: Were you at that party?

Katie: No. I mean, that party was on campus for the grad students at Dal, so there's no way I would've been there. So anyway, we used to hang out at the Dalhousie bar, the Graywood a lot, so you never know, we could have been at the same place at the same time before. That's just a cool connection.

So a little bit about Holly. She was born on December 26th, 1978 in Halifax. She had a younger sister and an older sister, so she was the middle child. Her parents were both from Newfoundland, so they were a true maritime family. Holly was born with a disorder known as underdeveloped eyes. And so she had difficulty seeing growing up, and by the time she was 13 years old, she was legally blind. So as an adult she had no vision at all. Despite this hardship, she was an honors student and she was on the Dean's list at St F X University in Antigonish, Nova Scotia, where she attended before she went to Dalhousie. So she was very social, had lots of friends, and anyone that ever said anything about her in the documentaries in the podcast that I'd listened to, said she was very vibrant. She just had a zest for life, so she was just that kind of person. Didn't let this disability get her down or define her in any way. In Halifax, she loved to hang out at the bar called the Pogue Fado, which was definitely one of my favorites as well. It's closed down now, but it was a cute little Irish pub downtown. It always had live music, and I think Steph probably remembers it too. It's just a fun little place. It's gone though, sadly. 

Stephanie: Yes. I loved that place.

Katie: I know one of our favorites for sure. 

AJ: Yeah, so you guys would've been there around the same time. You said 2010, right? 

Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would've been still in university partying every night. Definitely downtown a lot, so I feel like we definitely probably were in the same place at the same time, at least one of these times. Anyway, Holly was very outgoing, and like I said, she, by no means was defined by being blind. She had learned how to swing dance, and she had gone skydiving. She owned her own condo that she bought with one of her friends, and she worked full-time for the Nova Scotia government, and she was about to graduate with a master's degree. All before she was 32 years old. So she was definitely living life to the fullest. She had a very sarcastic sense of humor. Her condo was on the top floor of her building, which was level 13. It had a beautiful view of the Halifax Harbor, which of course she couldn't enjoy, but she said that that's what sold her on the place was the view. So just kind of her sarcastic, making fun of herself in a way kind of humor. 

AJ: Also, the 13th floor is sketchy. I would never rent there. 

Katie: Yeah, I know. 

AJ: Freak me out. 

Katie: It's funny how a lot of places they skip the 13th floor and go 12 and then 14. But it's like the 14th floor is really the 13th. You're not fooling anybody. But yeah, it's funny. That's super sketch. 

Stephanie: Yeah. Like most hotels don't have 13th floors.

Katie: Yeah, I know. It's weird. 

AJ: Wouldn't live on the 14th floor either? 

Stephanie: No. Cause it's 13. 

Katie: Okay. So like I mentioned, this story takes place March, 2010. So it's Friday, March 26th to be exact, and Holly was out celebrating, so she actually went out to the Fireside restaurant, which is this cozy little spot. I think it was up by Spring Garden Road. I used to love that place as well. 

Stephanie: I've been there a few times too. 

Katie: Yeah, it was cozy, it was cute, it had fireplaces. Super nice. Had a really chill atmosphere. That restaurant's not there anymore either. Sadly. So after they had dinner at the Fireside, her and her friends went down to a liquor store where Holly buys a bottle of wine with her credit card. This is how she always preferred to pay was with credit card just because she felt more secure doing it that way rather than having to have cash. She had a system, she knew cash, the feel of it, what she was paying with. It wasn't an issue if she had cash, but just paying with credit card was just a lot easier for her and just how she preferred to pay. So after they had bought the bottle of wine, her friend gave her a $5 bill cause they split on the bottle of wine. It was only $10. She had a $5 bill in her pocket. Then they head to a friend's house for a party and then that night was the grad awards or something like that at the school at Dalhousie. That's where they all ended up was at this party on campus at Dal. So it's reported that Holly was drinking that night, and in a six hour timeframe, she had about six drinks, which isn't a ton of drinks when you think about it really. But Holly was only 4' 11, so she was super tiny. Her friends say that she stopped drinking alcohol and switched to water near the end of the night. She still had enough sense about her to know that she was at her limit and she needed to slow down. And so she probably was drunk when she decided to leave, but it wasn't like she had never been drunk before. It's not like she couldn't handle herself. So it wasn't like she was stumbling and people were worried for her. After all of the festivities, one of Holly's friends walked her out to a cab. Knowing that she was very independent, she felt that she would be fine on her own. One friend did say that night that this was the drunkest that they had ever seen Holly, but a lot of her other friends had said that she really wasn't that bad. They say that they wouldn't have let her leave alone if they were worried about her. So yeah, she was drinking, maybe was a little drunk, but it wasn't like she couldn't handle herself is basically what the narrative is here. 

AJ: But were they drunk too? I mean they probably don't have good recollection if they were all super drunk too. 

Katie: Yeah. I don't know how drunk they were. I mean, when you're a big group of drunk people, you just probably don't have the best judgment. But I mean being drunk is super subjective cuz, I mean, she was very small. She had six drinks in six hours. But it depends on her metabolism and how much she had eaten before that. You know, her body type, her tolerance, to figure out how drunk she actually was. Later on when they did tests for her blood alcohol level, it was at 0.09, which is a little bit above the limit, the legal driving limit. So it wasn't catastrophically high or anything, but you know, not like she was sober. So she gets in a cab and she's heading back to her condo, but sadly, she would never make it back to the safety of her home. On Saturday, March 27th, so the next day, a construction worker unlocks the fence that is surrounding the base of the McKay Bridge in Halifax, and they spot something red in a pile on the ground. This turns out to be the body of a woman lying at the base of the McKay Bridge in Halifax, near a large concrete abutment. Holly had on a bright red wool coat. The McKay Bridge is one of the two main bridges in the city that go across the Halifax Harbor to Dartmouth. It's a large three or four lane suspension bridge. What was strange was that she was on the other side of a locked, fenced area. She was lying on her back. She was hypothermic with a wound to her head, but she was actually still alive at this point, just unconscious. So she was rushed to the hospital in critical condition, but unfortunately she died in hospital on Sunday morning, March 28th, 2010. Holly's case was investigated very briefly by the Halifax Police, but it seemed at the time, just an open and shut case. On the surface, it was just a drunk, blind girl that had an accident, hit her head and died, and the case was actually closed very quickly. And I mean, when you think about it, on the surface, yeah, that does make sense when you first think about it, because someone who is drinking and isn't blind can very easily get lost, get into trouble at night in the city, and then you take into account that she was blind. It seems very plausible that, you know, she could get lost. Something bad could happen to her. 

AJ: By the bridge though? If she's in a cab heading home, she shouldn't be under a bridge.

Katie: Yeah, well just put that into context. She only lived a couple blocks away from that bridge. Her condo was just up the street from the bridge. 

AJ: Oh. 

Stephanie: Now that I'm thinking about that, I remember Crime Junkies did this case. 

Katie: Mm-hmm. They did. Yeah. 

Stephanie: And if you go online, you can see a map. They mapped it out of where she lived and where her body was found. So it's not that far actually away. Her apartment's up on a hill, I can't remember the street name. 

AJ: Did she live in the Halifax side or the Dartmouth side? 

Katie: She lived in Halifax on the Halifax side. It was by Novalea Drive, which is a dead end. Her condo building, the driveway was a circular driveway. Then you have to go down the driveway and there's really, if you're in the car, you can really only go one way. So once you come down that street, you have to turn to go up to the street to her condo apartment. That'll like come into play later, why that's important. There's other pathways to get to different places. There's another apartment building called Kencrest not that far away. Behind that apartment building is where this fenced area is that has this abutment for the bridge. I actually have a picture that I'm gonna show you, in a minute just so you can understand what I'm talking about when I say abutment. When I was first researching this, I'm like, "what the fuck is an abutment? What does it look like?" It really helps you picture what happened or what they think happened. 

AJ: Also, oh, sorry, I know you're gonna get into this, but you also said she was in a locked area near the abutment. That's also suspicious too. If it's a locked area, how do you get on the inside of the locked area? 

Katie: Yeah, it's completely locked. Yeah, so I'll get into that and why people just think it's super strange how she even got in there. Okay. So yeah, so security footage from the bridge that night ruled out that she had jumped off the bridge because it showed that she was never on the bridge that night. That bridge, the McKay Bridge in Halifax is actually for vehicles only, so there's no sidewalks and there's no way for a pedestrian to get up there unless they're just walking in the traffic lanes. So if people see someone walking on the McKay Bridge, they usually always call the police right away, just because people aren't supposed to be walking up there. There's something going on if there is a pedestrian just hanging out up there. So they know that she was not up on the bridge that night, so that's ruled out immediately. That night it's believed that Holly had apparently been dropped off in a cab in front of her condo building, which, like I said, had a circular driveway, but police speculate that because she was drunk and blind, she got outta the car and walked the opposite way of her apartment building. They claim that she walked down this steep driveway from her building. She took a right, she walked about 300 meters down the street, she got behind that other apartment building, the Kencrest, and then she fell down this steep embankment behind there. Then she got to the fenced area and there was a little hole in the fence. So they say she climbed through this hole in the fence to get into this locked section under the bridge. Climbed up this huge steep concrete abutment of the bridge, and then she fell about six meters or 22 feet ,hit her head, and that's where she layed until she was found. It just seems like a strange series of events for someone. 

AJ: But wouldn't she know, wouldn't she stop herself? You know, she's blind, she walks the same route. She would know by going through that amount of things that she wasn't in the right area. You don't climb up over and down, she would have known that she was exactly not where she was supposed to be. Right? 

Katie: Yeah. 

AJ: Well, I guess if she was drunk though. 

Katie: Everyone that talks about this case, and I'll get into this a little bit more about how they would know that there's no way she would've mistakenly gone the wrong way. And even if she did, why she would go that far away from her apartment building knowing that she was going the wrong way and crawling through a hole in the fence. She had to know she was not in the right spot. Right? 

AJ: Yeah. I was gonna say, she would've had to know that she didn't normally crawl through a fence to get home, so she would've had to know that doing that is not right.

Stephanie: Most people who are blind their senses are hypersensitive. So like AJ said, she was drunk, but she's not gonna to crawl through a hole. She would've known. 

Katie: Exactly. Holly has this friend named Peter, and he was partially blind as well, but he was an orientation and mobility specialist for the blind and so he actually was hired to help Holly navigate the city on her own, teach her new roots, cuz she used one of those white canes to navigate around. But Peter says that Holly was so good at getting around that she would actually teach him tips about the city and tricks to remember street names and directions so she could get around the city on her own. She would take the bus on her own, walk around the city, know exactly where she was going without any issues. So, I mean even though she was blind, she still was very aware of where she was at all times in the city. 

AJ: I was gonna say, okay, maybe if she was drunk, you might think, okay, if you're drunk your judgment's not right. Also you said 0.09%, it's not very much at all. Like you said slightly over the legal limit, which is 0.08, but 0.09 is almost next to nothing. Right? You know, you could have one drink and still be over that limit. Obviously that's the point, right? For the legal field of the legal limit. So if she was 0.09, I can't imagine that you're not gonna be, at 0.09, you're not gonna be that drunk, that you're gonna go through all that and not know. Especially even if she was smaller, like you said, and metabolism stuff. But I still don't think 0.09, that's like two drinks. I know you said she had six, but I just feel like... 

Katie: Yeah, but six in a span of six hours. So that's like a drink an hour. So I mean, when I'd be drinking, I'd have a beer and you waited a whole hour before another one, you're not even hardly gonna feel it, I feel. So I guess it depends what she was drinking as well. 

AJ: It takes an hour for your body to get rid it. Don't they say it's like one drink per hour to get through your system or something. So that's why when you're binge drinking, if you're drink more than one drink per hour, you're gonna get drunk. 

Katie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

AJ: But if you're drinking one per hour, you're barely gonna get drunk as your body has time to break it down or whatever the word is I'm thinking of, you know, filter it or whatever.

Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

AJ: But I think at 0.09 though, I feel that means you're almost not drunk at all. 

Stephanie: Well, the legal limit is 0.08. 

AJ: Obviously it depends on your metabolism but 0.08 is the legal limit. That's the point, that it's barely nothing. You could have half a drink and hit that because obviously you shouldn't drive at all. So they make the legal limit really low. So 0.09, that's not gonna be intoxication level, I feel. Over the legal limit, legally to drive, but it's still probably not drunk. To me, it wouldn't be anyway, 0.09. I don't know. 

Stephanie: I mean, six drinks though, I feel like that's a lot. I mean in six hours. 

AJ: Like I said, one per hour. 

Stephanie: But that's still a lot though. I'm older now, but if I have two drinks in two hours, I'm still feeling it. So I feel like six drinks in six hours, you're gonna be drunk enough.

AJ: But she would've been over 0.9 then if she was, I feel. 

Stephanie: And we could, I don't know, argue about this. 

AJ: Yeah, but also, then I was thinking too, sorry, just one other thing I wanna say is too, I guess it makes sense cuz you said that when they found her the next morning, she was still alive. So technically by that point when they did the test, it would've been 0.09 cuz her body's like still breaking it down in that time span.

Katie: That's true. She still had all those hours to continue to break it down. So it would've been a little bit higher. 

AJ: Yeah. She didn't die when she was still super drunk. So they would've been doing the test when she died hours later. 

Katie: That's a good point. So they found her, but this was six, seven hours later and it was still 0.09. So yeah, it probably was quite high. Either way I think it's still a very strange thing for anyone to be doing, crawling at night. It's cold, through a hole in the fence and crawling up this thing. It's just strange. So there's a link to this picture that I wanted to show you, just so you get an understanding of what I mean.

Stephanie: Yeah, I'm looking at it right now. It's super strange. It's funny cause I know where that is. I can picture it. 

AJ: Is that her body in the picture? 

Katie: That big concrete wedge, that's the abutment that they think she climbed up and then fell off the edge and where that circle is, is where they found her body. That's not her.

AJ: That looks like her body though. Oh. 

Katie: Yeah, as far as I...

AJ: Looks like a body laying on the ground. 

Katie: That's not her. I don't know what that is. Oh yeah. But she had a red coat on, so she was red when they found her. 

AJ: Oh. 

Stephanie: Because I live in Halifax, I know what that is. You can't get there. There's a locked fence there, so you literally can't get in there on your own.

Katie: There's actually two fences now. Now there's a fence around that abutment and there's another one around it as well. And yes it's locked at all times. Even the people that work there, they go in, they have to unlock it, they get in, they lock it behind them, they have to leave, they go to the bathroom, they lock it, unlock it. It's not like it's ever just open. And there's barbed wire at the top of the fence, and so, just for her to get in there, she had to crawl through this pretty small hole in the fence that she just happened to stumble upon. So very, just very strange. 

AJ: But I don't see, I don't even see a fence in that picture at all.

Katie: No. It's farther back. This is a bigger area than it looks. That abutment itself is probably the size of a tennis court, and then the land around it is the size of a football field. So the picture just makes things look smaller than they actually are. But this whole area is quite large and the fence is just farther back.

AJ: Oh, so like the person's inside the fence who's taking it?

Katie: Probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're inside the fence, yeah. 

AJ: Oh, okay. 

Katie: Like I was saying, her friend Peter and some other friends felt like there was just something off about this story and the police's theory of what happened to her that night. They wanted to go check it out themselves, so they went down to the place where she was found under the bridge They walked the route that Holly should have taken and the route that the police were saying she took to end up where she was. The cab driver says that he took her to her apartment building, but it's believed that she got outta the cab and started walking the wrong way, like I said before. Peter explains on the, What Happened to Holly Bartlett podcast, that when you're blind, you pick up audio cues from around you and you become familiar with traffic patterns and sounds, and you can tell which direction traffic is going, just based on their noise, and if it's perpendicular or parallel, you just know the directions based on that. So he says that Holly would've been so familiar with this area that if she had walked the opposite way of her apartment building, she would've known right away based on the way the traffic sounded, and based on the fact that the traffic would've been on her wrong side, like her left versus right. All she would have to do was turn around to head back to the right, in the right direction. it was around midnight, but that area of the city, that bridge, there's always traffic. It's not like it would've been quiet, like you could always hear very loud traffic in that area. That would've been a cue for her, I think, regardless of how drunk she was, to know that she's in the wrong place, going the wrong direction. So even if she was disoriented at first, got outta the cab on the wrong side, it would've been very easy for her just to turn around and get back to where she was supposed to be. So it didn't make sense why she would've done what she did that night. Why did she go the wrong way and keep going when she was so close to her front door? Why crawl through a hole in the fence? I mean, blind or not, that's not something that you would be doing on your own on a cold March night. Peter early on knew just something was up with the police's theory. Peter's father, Brian, he actually worked as a homicide investigator in the Canadian military and later as a private investigator. So he was on his son's side and even headed up a little task force that Peter and some of Holly's friends started, called it Justice for Holly, to look into the investigation themselves as police had closed the case so quickly. So Peter reached out to the police, letting them know his thoughts and that he was an expert in blind mobility and orientation, and so he knew that this was just odd behavior for Holly. He asked them if the cab driver that night had been questioned at all, and the police assured them that the cab driver was a solid guy and there was nothing suspicious about him at all. They said he was, "salt of the earth," whatever the fuck that means. This cab driver, his name was Paul Fraser. He was an older guy who had worked as a cab driver for 20 or so years, and so he was very soft spoken and maybe he just seemed like a good guy if you were, you know, just taking things at face value. He says that he didn't know that Holly was blind and she just seemed a little drunk. He claims that when she got out of his cab and she got out of the car on the driver's side, started walking the opposite way of her building. Whereas if she had gotten out on the passenger side of the car, she would've been facing the front entrance. And so he didn't think anything of it because he didn't know she was blind. He wasn't like, "oh, where are you going?" He just figured you know, she's just going somewhere different besides this building that I just dropped her off in front of. Because of that, he doesn't say anything and he just leaves her there. So Brian, Peter's father, had discovered that there was a bus that had stopped at the same time that Holly would've been dropped off, and so he asked the police to get the security footage from the bus, and they actually did agree to get it and look at it to see if they could see anything that went on that night when Holly was dropped off. So they do watch the tape, and at first it just seems like that there's nothing really there. They do see the cab going into the area and leaving the area at the right times to match the story about when Holly would've been dropped off. But then they keep watching and they see something that they weren't really expecting. The cab driver who had dropped Holly off, he was still in the footage. He didn't leave the area of Holly's apartment right away, but he hung around a little bit. They see his car down the road from Holly's apartment, which was very close to that locked, fenced area of the abutment where Holly was found. And I guess they see him heading back up towards her building. So, like I said, this area was set up so there was a dead end, and the road actually only went one way. So in this particular spot in the footage, there's only one way he could have been going and that would've been back up towards Holly's building. And so the police tracked down Paul Fraser again, and they questioned him about this. They had to press him a little bit harder and tell him that they have footage of him, you know, going back to that apartment, the area of where her apartment was that night. So he confesses a little bit more. He says that he didn't actually know she was blind, he just thought she was drunk. So he says that again, and especially he said because he actually saw her trip over the curb and fall into the grass. He just left her there, even though she fell. But then he felt guilty about it, and so he decided to come back around to check to see if she was okay. That's why he came back up and was on that footage. But he says that she was gone by the time he got back. He left that out the first time he talked to the police, just cuz he was ashamed of his actions and, you know, just didn't really see the importance of it. So that was his story, his first story.

AJ: Sketchy.

Katie: First and second story. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Brian, he decides to interview the cab driver himself and his story changes a little bit again. So once he's pressed a bit, Paul Fraser says that he didn't tell the police the whole story again the second time. He says that Holly had given him $75 in cash for the cab ride when it was actually only a $15 fare. But instead of being honest, he just gave her less than $2 change. So he had basically, you know, stolen money from her and he didn't admit that before because he was ashamed that he had done that. Now, people bring this up a lot because they say, well, Holly never had cash. She didn't like carrying cash. She always wanted to pay with credit card. So they're thinking that that just isn't right, his story. But I mean, why would you make that up that you ripped off a blind girl while she was drunk in your cab if it wasn't true? 

AJ: What? Well, I mean , making up that you stole from her is better than admitting if he actually did something to her. So it's still better than, if that is the real story. 

Katie: I guess, yeah, but I mean later again, he's questioned again and he denies that he ever said that he ripped off Holly that night. He denies that he ever did that. He denies he ever said it. So he has a few versions of his story that just don't add up. Different details every time he tells it. 

AJ: So just going back to the money part, couldn't it be she had money that night or cash on her that night because she was at a bar and drinking? She might've just taken cash out. It's easier to pay maybe at a bar with cash. You can tip easier. 

Katie: Yeah. 

AJ: You know, this is 2010. This was before, you know, debit machines would have the tip option on it probably, right? 

Katie: Yeah, probably, I don't know. I don't remember. But I mean definitely for sure I don't think it's unreasonable to think that she could have had cash on her. And I guess there's certain ways that blind people, they carry their cash. They fold different denomination bills in different ways so that they can just put their hand in their wallet and they just feel the way the bill is and they just know what bills they are so they're not sitting there trying to figure it out. So people that knew Holly said that she had this system whenever she did have cash. So maybe it's cuz she was drunk, but her giving him a whole bunch of money and only taking back a dollar in change just doesn't seem right. But I mean, we don't know exactly what happened, if that's true, not true. If she had cash, if she didn't. So that's just another one of the things, part of the story that we just are never gonna know for sure.

Stephanie: I was gonna say I don't think I've ever remembered myself paying with a debit or a credit card in a cab. I think I always used to pay cash. 

Katie: Oh my god. I remember back in the day. Yeah. Cabs would, and of course they wouldn't tell you until it was ready to pay, "oh, I can't take a card," and you don't have cash. 

Stephanie: Yeah.

Katie: It was super annoying. Yeah. They, for whatever reason, they were late to get machines in their cars. 

AJ: Yeah. And then they would say, "oh, well I can drive you to a bank or an ATM to get money out," and then of course it would be more. You would pay more because...

Katie: They would fucking drive you to the bank, sit there, wait for you, and then take you back and you gotta pay for the whole thing. It's like, thanks. 

Stephanie: Yeah. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Stephanie: I remember back in the day when you called the cab, you specifically said, "oh, do you have debit?" And they would say, "yeah, we have debit." But then you get in the cab and you're ready to pay, "oh, sorry, we don't have debit." 

Katie: Yeah, exactly, or "my machine's down." Apparently this comes up in this documentary and as well, in the podcast. Cab drivers prefer cash because then they don't have to claim the full amount and they don't have to pay taxes on the full amount. Whereas if they're paid by card, there's no getting around that. So it's like they make a little bit more money on cash, but it's just super annoying and inconvenient for everybody else involved. 

AJ: I mean, I'm surprised the cab even came and picked her up. Usually don't the cabs just go awol? I don't know.

Katie: Oh my God. The cabs in Halifax were a shit show. I mean, you had to call three hours before you planned on leaving just to get through basically. 

Stephanie: Especially on a Friday or Saturday night, you had to call three hours in advance if you wanted to go anywhere. We used to walk. 

AJ: I guess it's easier on a Friday cause there would probably be cabs just around there. 

Stephanie: We never, we barely ever took cabs unless it was cold outside. 

Katie: Yeah, definitely. We walked the whole city just so we didn't have to take a cab. Another thing that comes up and is seen as suspicious is that Holly, like I said, she walked around with a walking cane that she always took with her and that was not found with Holly when they found her. Her family knew that there was no way that she would have gone out without it, as it was an essential part of how she navigated the city. Police had searched the area. They had not found it in the surrounding area. They even brought canine search dogs out to specifically look for this cane and they could not find it. That day that they found Holly, they did four searches with four different officers and two of those searches had the canine dogs with them, and they were unsuccessful finding her cane. But that same day that Holly died, after police had packed up and removed all their yellow tape from the scene, the cane was found, propped up, standing upright against a fence behind that apartment building in the same area by the bridge, but on the other side of the fence where Holly was discovered. So it was on this steep slope, it was just found by some people looking around in the area. So the quick question is here, how did police miss this cane when they were specifically out there looking for it when just some random person was able to spot it? And, you know, how did it get there standing upright against this fence? Now it's very eerie when you see a picture of it just standing there. And I guess what it represents just gives you chills. It's just like this blind girl's walking cane propped up alone by the fence. So it's just obviously not a natural scene. And that's something that people can't get over. It's like, how did they miss this cane? You know and people are thinking, well, did they miss it? Was it just not there and then someone put it there later. It was just very strange. And so in the, What Happened to Holly Bartlett podcast, they talk about it and they bring in a former police officer named Tom, who's now a private investigator to investigate with them and they look at the place where the cane was left. And he says, it seems like someone deliberately placed the cane where it was after the police had left the area that day. But I'm thinking like why, if that was me and I had done something and I had her cane, I would dispose of it just so that it would never be found. I wouldn't creep back in later to put it back at the crime scene. That's just a super weird thing to do. Also if that is what happened, who put it there and why? It's just a very strange detail. 

AJ: The cab driver, he said he didn't know she was blind, but if she had that cane, walking stick in the cab with her, he would've seen that then wouldn't he have known she was blind? If, you know, it was a very particular looking type of, you know, cane that is used by people who were blind. So for him to say he wouldn't know that she was blind if she had it with her then, then that's also kind of weird. 

Katie: Yeah, he said he did not see that cane. She didn't have it with her. She did have a big purse with her that she kept it in because it was one of those ones that are collapsible, you could put in a bag. So maybe she just didn't take it out while she was with him, but he says he never saw that cane and so he just never knew she was blind. I still don't know if his story is, you know, truthful. 

AJ: But she had it at the bar? You said she had it at the bar? Right?

Katie: I mean, I, I don't know for sure if she had it, but it's like something that she would just take with her everywhere. She couldn't get around as easy without it, so there's no reason why she would not have taken it. She would've always have it everywhere. Maybe in the cab she would've folded it up, put it in her purse. 

Stephanie: That was gonna be my next question if she took it with her to the bar? I don't know how they work, but in a bar it's super crowded. I think it'd be hard to use one of those canes. 

Katie: Yeah. She might not have had it inside the bar, but maybe walking different places while she was outside she might have had it. But yeah, she probably just had it in a pocket in her backpack or her purse where she could just grab it easily when she needed it. And so I don't know why he wouldn't have seen it if she had it. There's some other theories that come up in a little bit that maybe explain it. But anyway, just a weird, definitely a weird thing. Another strange thing is that Holly's phone and wallet were found on the ground by the entrance of her building. So the question is why did her stuff make it there, but she didn't? And none of these things could ever be explained by the police department though. It was her phone and wallet were in the parking lot right in front of her front door. Yet somehow she ended up going in the opposite direction. So that doesn't make sense either. So she didn't have her phone with her while she was out if she was lost. So she couldn't have called anybody, which is another scary thing. She probably realized, "oh, my phone's not here." Holly's autopsy revealed that she had died of a head injury due to blunt force trauma. The medical examiner who did the autopsy knew that the police thought that she had died from an accident and that she had fallen. That medical examiner did say that her head injury was consistent with a fall. And years later, the investigative team that did this podcast, they brought this evidence to another forensic examiner just to get a second opinion. And this time they redacted all of Holly's information and they retracted the manner of death that was previously determined, just to get an unbiased opinion, starting fresh to see what this medical examiner would say without knowing all the facts, who it was and that the police thought she had fallen. They came to the same conclusion saying that it was blunt force trauma, and that it was consistent with a fall like that could have been, a fall could have made those injuries. It just seems like, yeah, maybe that is what happened. She fell, hit her head. So that's not really disputed. A few years go by and now it's 2014, and the Halifax Police actually agreed to have an outside agency review the case to see if they had missed anything or just to get another set of eyes on their investigation because they were getting a lot of pressure from the public because they had closed the case so quickly. They thought it was an accident when other people were thinking that maybe something else was going on here. A police agency from Quebec came in to look into the investigation that the Halifax Police had done, and what they concluded is that the way that the Halifax police handled the case was inadequate. The Quebec City Police noted that Halifax Police should have started canvassing for witnesses right away, but they actually didn't interview people in the neighborhood until four months later, and even when they did, they only talked to about six people. They also say that police should have looked on Holly's computer and into her social media accounts right away, within hours of opening the case, just to get a sense of who she was and who she knew. But they didn't do that until four years later for some reason. And further, the police say that they should have consulted with other people from the C N I B, which is the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, which Peter and Holly were both members of, just to get a better understanding of how blind people navigate and how consuming alcohol can affect this ability because the police going into this, you know, really didn't have any idea what it was like to be blind. They just assumed that Holly, you know, was just this poor, drunk, blind girl when really they did underestimate her. In the notes, the police had a note that said, they had to find and talk to Holly's full-time caregiver, cuz they just assumed that she would need one. But Holly didn't have a full-time caregiver. She didn't have a caregiver at all. She lived on her own basically. She had a roommate, but she owned her own condo and she could navigate herself. So it was very much like, oh, this definitely happened to her because she was blind and they really just didn't understand her situation. So the Quebec City police were like, "well, they should have looked into that further to understand her life better." 

AJ: Yeah, she's blind. She's not bedridden. Why would she need a caregiver? 

Katie: Yeah. I mean, I guess apparently Holly would have someone that would come to her house and take her to get groceries once a week. But that was all the help she got basically. Yeah, it just seems like they really didn't take the time to understand Holly's life. They just figured she got lost and disoriented very quickly because she was blind. Then that's just what happened to her because she was blind that night. So even after they look into this investigation themselves, the Quebec City Police stated that they too, even though they figured that this was, their investigation was inadequate, they say that they actually would have come to the same conclusion that it was an accident. So even though the investigation wasn't thorough, they were saying, I guess even if it was, they probably would've said it was an accident as well. So there was nothing to reopen the case. They didn't change the outcome of it. But I guess that's just what they found. That was kinda the end of all investigations for another few years until it was looked into again in 2018. And this is when the docu-series and the podcast that I've been talking about, What Happened to Holly Bartlett starts to be created. This is where they have that PI that I mentioned, Tom Martin, he was a former Halifax Police detective. He had been on the force for many years and they brought him in to do this separate investigation into Holly's case in 2018. So going back to that abutment, the What Happened to Holly Barlett podcast, that crew, they went out there with Tom to wrap their heads around why and how she would've been out there. They try to climb up that abutment themselves and it's so steep that they have to crawl on their hands and knees to get to the top. They bring up some good points. If Holly was on her hands and knees crawling up that abutment when she got to the end, she would've felt the edge. She would've been able to stop herself before she went over. If she did walk up, she could have just stepped off the edge, I guess, but it was so steep and difficult to get up, like why would she make that effort to get all the way up there? They conclude that it's hard to believe that Holly would've mistaken that for an actual pathway or a way out of wherever she was. Her friend Peter says that she would've known she was under the traffic and that going up wasn't going to get her anywhere. So just her going up there doesn't make any sense any way, and there's no way she could have thought that getting up there would get her to the top of the bridge. She knew her surroundings better than that. Also when they examined the clothing that she was wearing that night, they didn't find any traces of the cement or the powdery substance that you would expect if you were crawling up this, you know, rough concrete surface. They didn't find any of that on the knees of her jeans or anywhere on her jeans or her boots, which were black. They said that they would expect that the toes of her boots would be all scuffed up from her crawling up on her hands and knees, but they weren't, and the palms of her hands weren't even scratched up. So, I mean, if you're crawling on your palms up this steep, rough surface, you think they'd be cut. But they didn't have any evidence that her hands were scraped up at all. But the back of her hands actually had scrapes and looked like defensive wounds maybe. They said that she had other bruises on her arms. She had bruises on her butt, her legs were bruised. Some reports say she had a broken leg, some say she had broken ribs and they say her mouth and her face were injured as well as if she had been hit really hard in the face. Some believe that maybe she had fallen on her face when she fell, and that's where the internal injuries came from that led to her death. So that blunt force trauma could have been on her face that caused her to be unconscious. So that's all the information that they have wrapped up in this case. So before I tell you the conclusion of the PI Tom after his investigation in 2018, what are your guys' thoughts or theories about what happened to Holly that night? 

Stephanie: I wanna say, obviously she met with some type of foul play because just the way you're describing it, and her being blind, there's no way she could just crawl in there by herself and go up that abutment and fall down by herself. I feel like obviously something happened to her and I feel like it could be the cab driver cuz he was probably the last person to see her alive. So that's just my speculation, but obviously something more sinister happened, then her just doing it herself. So that's what I think anyway. 

AJ: Was she, I'm assuming the answer is a no because nothing ever came out, but was there evidence that she had been sexually assaulted or anything? Probably not. Right?

Katie: There was no evidence of that? No, she was fully clothed and they did testing and no, she was not. 

AJ: Okay because I was thinking like, I could see it possibly having it been an accident, just walking up that thing. Yeah, you can't really explain it. But, you know, maybe she's drunk if she was really, really drunk, whatever. But the fact that it was behind a fence that she would've had to crawl through, like, to me that's very bizarre. And also the thing you were talking about with her crawling on her hands and knees and there's no cuts of that is weird. So I would say definitely foul play probably. I mean, I can't say, from the information, but the cab driver is super sketchy, so I would definitely go back to him and question him further. Obviously I don't know anything about the case or anything about, it's all alleged. It's just my opinion. But I don't know. I think he's sketchy.

Stephanie: I know this is further back in this whole case, but did they ever find anything missing from her wallet? Did they look at her wallet that was by her apartment building?

Katie: So they never said if there was any money missing. I guess we don't really know if she ever did actually have cash. By her cane by the fence though they did find a $5 bill, which some people think was that $5 bill that her friend had given her at the liquor store for that bottle of wine. So it didn't seem like robbery would've been a motive. I mean, maybe they would've taken that $5. I don't know. But no, they never really said anything was missing. 

Stephanie: Not even a credit card or anything. I was gonna go back to maybe she was robbed, something happened, but if they never did look into that, then I don't know.

Katie: No, that was never brought up. So I feel like if her credit cards were missing, that would definitely be a red flag. But it was never mentioned. So I can only assume that nothing was missing that they knew of. 

AJ: Couldn't they have looked into her bank records, the last time that she made a withdrawal? If this cab driver saying that she gave him a bunch of money, maybe they could look at too, what was the withdrawals that she had made recently? Did she have that amount of money to even give someone. That would also be another way that they could look into that. And I'm assuming maybe they did, but also I don't really trust the the Halifax Police. They, based on this case, seem incompetence. So I don't know if that was something they even considered? 

Katie: Yeah, I don't know. Nothing like that ever came up. I feel like most people don't put a lot of importance on the fact that whether she had cash or not, because they just don't think that it's a huge part of what happened. So I don't really, I don't know it, it's never come up in anything that I've seen about her, them looking into her banking records, because like I said, the police closed it pretty easily. Her mother said that the case was closed before they even had a memorial service for her. So it was very open and shut. It was very much like this girl was blind, drunk, had an accident, we are done. And so they probably didn't have time to look into it cuz the case was already closed by the time they even thought about it. Tom says that after looking at all the evidence and speaking with people reexamining the scene, he actually comes to the same conclusion that the police are correct in saying that her death was an accident. However, he doesn't think that it happened in the way that they said it did. So his theory is much more detailed and it's actually more acceptable to the family because they didn't necessarily think that Holly was murdered or that someone had done something to her necessarily. They somewhat agreed that this could have been an accident, but they just didn't understand how it happened, that they just didn't agree with the police's theory, that she tried to climb up that abutment and fell, like that just didn't make sense to them. And so they were just looking for more probable answers, a better explanation of what happened that night. So Tom was able to provide them with his theory that appeased them a little bit more and made more sense to them. Even though the same conclusion was that it was an accident that night. So Tom's theory goes like this, okay, so he thinks that that night before they get to Holly's apartment, Holly tells the cab driver that she needs to pay the fare with a credit card. And so like we were talking about before, the cab may not have been equipped with credit card machines and even, like I said, even if they were, a lot of cab drivers preferred cash. Typically when Holly would call a cab for herself, she would make sure that the cab had a credit card machine. But this particular night her friend had called a cab for her, so that may not have been something that her friend had asked about. And so because this cab driver apparently didn't know that Holly was blind and needed a credit card machine, when Holly said that, you know, I need a credit card machine to pay. If the cab didn't have it, he may have just gotten mad and thought that this was just another drunk girl that is planning to get a free ride and not pay for her cab. A lot of people say that Holly was, you know, even though she was blind and small, she was very feisty and she would've put up a fight or argued, you know, saying that she needed to pay with credit card. That was her only option. And you know, just cuz she was blind, she didn't let people push her around. And so if there was a confrontation with her and the cab driver, she would have stood up for herself. And so Tom speculates that maybe she argued with the cab driver before they even got to that round circular driveway by her building. Maybe it was down by that other apartment building, that Kencrest building near the embankment where that fence was. And that they're thinking that maybe she either jumped out of the car early. Or thinking that he stopped and like pulled her out of the car because he was mad or angry that she wasn't able to pay the fair. And then either way she gets outta the car and just takes off running. And so maybe that explains why she didn't have her cane out, why he didn't see it, because it was still in her bag because she had gotten out of the car fast and tried to run away. So that makes sense that she's not by her apartment building, so she's disoriented, doesn't know exactly where she is at this point. He goes on to say that she could have fallen down that embankment by the fence that was by that other apartment building. And there was also this big concrete wall that she could have ran head on into that wall, and that could be where she got the injuries to her face. There was another hole in the fence down by that steep embankment that if she fell down, she could have went through that second hole in the fence there. He thinks that she didn't actually even go up that abutment, but just that her head injury stopped her from getting any further, and that's just happened to be where she collapsed right by that abutment due to the head injuries from falling or maybe running into that wall. When they go back and talk to Mr. Fraser, the cab driver, he claims that he doesn't really remember any more. He's saying that he's in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease and so that he doesn't really remember anything of that night. He's saying that he's in the early stages of Alzheimer's, and so he doesn't remember that night very well. He's saying that he has a vision of her falling, which seems very ominous, but he doesn't take any responsibility for anything that happened to her that night. Tom thinks that Holly's cane could have, in their scuffle, or if she had left quickly, could have fallen and gotten left in his cab. And then later when he found it, he just, for whatever reason, propped it up by the fence after the police had searched the area just to get it out of his possession. That's still an odd thing for me, for him to do. 

AJ: Why? Why wouldn't he just ditch it somewhere else? It's random to prop it up there if you're gonna just, if you're doing it to just ditch it. 

Katie: I know. 

AJ: Get it out of your possession. That's weird. 

Katie: Yeah. I'm also thinking maybe Holly did get it out of her bag after she was running and then she propped it up and then she propped it up by that hole for herself to crawl into the hole, but then just left it there, which is still super weird. Anyway, so they also think that maybe the cab driver drove up to her apartment and threw her wallet and phone there. Maybe she left it in his cab. He wanted to get rid of it, so he threw it by her front door and that's why they see him on the footage coming back to her apartment that night on the bus footage, cuz that's what he was doing. On the footage they can tell it's his cab, but they can't really see who's in it. It's just too dark. So they can't tell she's in it or it's just him. So yeah, that's what they think he did there. So because of this conclusion, him saying that it was an accident, the case was never reopened and everyone is in agreement. Her family has accepted that they feel like it was an accident as well. There's still a lot of doubt in people's minds and in my mind too. I just don't know exactly what happened. If the cab driver was seeing what was happening, knew that she had fallen, , had hurt herself and just didn't do anything about it. Or if he just did drive away and not try and help her. If he did know she was blind or not, we don't actually know. But yeah, just thinking what was going through her head. She must have been scared. She was, you know, disoriented. She didn't have her phone and cold, and then ultimately that's how she died alone out there. So that's Holly's story. Super sad, super mysterious. Any final thoughts? 

AJ: Yeah, I don't know. This whole time I was thinking the cab driver was sketchy, but now I guess it makes sense. I'm thinking, yeah maybe they got into an argument or something. She got out, he drove away and then realized, "Oh yeah, her wallet and her phone or whatever, are here." So then that's why he turned around and went back to return that stuff. Which makes sense. I mean, and also too, like you said, there was no evidence of sexual assault or it didn't look like she was robbed or anything like that. So I couldn't just imagine why there would be foul play, why someone would kill her. There's no motive, you know what I mean? It wasn't a sexual motive or financial, so it's just random if someone did do something. So maybe the fact that it was an accident seems plausible. But yeah, I don't know. I guess I would lean towards that too. I mean, he's the PI, he did the investigation, so that's his final conclusion, but there's just not a lot to go on so all of those specific details in there, I don't, obviously we'll never know. 

Katie: Yeah, and I think his theory that maybe she got out of the car before she got to her apartment and then fell, got disoriented, makes so much more sense than her just getting out of the wrong side of the car right in front of her building and somehow getting lost. So that does make more sense to me and I feel like that's much more easier to believe that she was just in the wrong place, didn't actually know where she was. Hit her head. Got disoriented and that's what ended up happening to her. 

AJ: But also that's not even consistent necessarily with the cab driver's own statements. Why wouldn't he have just said that? Like, "Yeah, we got into an argument cuz I thought she just didn't want to pay." You know what I mean? It's more sketchy that you're changing your story five times than if you just say like, "Yeah, we got into an argument and I told her to get outta the cab. 

Katie: I guess maybe he was thinking that that would make him responsible for what happened because he kicked her out of his cab and then she ended up dying and then he found out later that she was blind, so he felt even more guilty. So I don't know. I mean, yeah, he does seem like a super sketchy guy. Obviously he just can't make up his mind about what actually did happen. So not a good look. But I mean, he's free and clear. Nothing's ever gonna happen to him. 

Stephanie: I feel bad now to blame the cab driver, but why not say that it was an accident at the beginning to save you all this trouble. Just own up to what happened and then people will be able to know what happened to her quicker. 

Katie: Yeah, I mean he could have been like, she couldn't pay so she ran out of the cab. That's all he really had to say, if that's what happened. Right? So I don't know. 

AJ: But also too, I think like sometimes like we have a different perspective cuz we research so many of these cases. So I think, to us the fact that you're changing your story three times is super sketchy and suspicious cuz we see that in so many cases when someone is guilty. But to him he might have thought like, "Oh, the truth could be more damning, that I got into a fight with her." You know what I mean? So he's not thinking about it necessarily that far ahead. He might just think that he's responsible because something happened to her after that. But obviously if he had just said that, it would've been less sketchy than changing your story. But he doesn't know that at the time. He's just thinking like, "Well I can't really tell them this because who knows, that might make me responsible or that might look worse."

Katie: Yeah, that's true. And then he adds those other little pieces. Why he had to come back if he was just throwing her stuff in the parking lot by her apartment, you know, he had to make up the story that he had to go back and check on her just cuz he feels like that's better than him telling them that he kicked this drunk blind girl out of the cab before she got home. That's probably a worse look he feels than what the story that he made up. So yeah, I guess it makes sense. 

AJ: Yeah. If the police come to you and they say, "We're investigating, you know, this case, the death of her." he's just thinking like, "Oh shit I can't tell them that I kicked her outta my cab and I was the last one who saw her, so I'm just gonna tell them all these other stories," when you know, to the average person, you might not be thinking. 

Stephanie: But that could get you in more trouble. 

AJ: He would think about it.

Stephanie: Lying to the police. 

AJ: But he might not know that. I mean, the average person should know that it's not gonna end up well, but I feel like maybe he just panicked and thought like, "Well I can't say anything close to what happened of we got into a fight. I'm just gonna say I dropped her off and, who knows? Then maybe when they confronted him or questioned him further, then he panicked again and changed it, which makes him more sketchy than if he just was upfront about it at the beginning. But just cuz he was not upfront about it, doesn't mean that he is hiding necessarily, that he did something to her. Just that he was scared and panicked. I don't know. 

Katie: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, I think we can all agree that he actually didn't physically do anything to harm her, but maybe just his actions weren't, you know, the best that night and led to on some unfortunate circumstances. But it's not like he did anything purposefully. And I mean, even if he did see something happen to her, if he saw her fall down that embankment or something and him not helping her, I mean, that's not a crime really to not help someone that needs help, I guess so, yeah. It's just, it's just unfortunate. 

AJ: Didn't we have this conversation before? Remember we had that way back?

Katie: I remember? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

AJ: Yeah. If somebody's falling off a bridge and you don't help them, are you then guilty and can be charged, I'm assuming yes. If you didn't physically push them off the bridge but you just don't help them up.

Katie: I mean, I would say you're not responsible. Are you gonna put your own self in danger to help somebody else? I guess, I mean, I would say that's not a crime. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I'm with Katie. I don't think it is a crime. 

Katie: Unless you caused it, you know? 

AJ: But in this case, the cab driver wouldn't be putting himself in danger if he saw her fall down an embankment and not going back. That's not putting himself in danger. He could just go down the embankment. I mean, I guess maybe. Dunno.

Katie: I guess. But I mean... 

AJ: I guess it's not really a charge. I don't know. 

Katie: Yeah, I guess it's still not illegal if he sees her in distress and doesn't do anything. I mean, it's not his responsibility to look after her.

AJ: I guess, yeah, just makes him a shitty person. 

Katie: Yeah. I guess once she gets outta the cab, he is not her responsibility anymore. So regardless of what happens, it's not his responsibility. But I mean, yeah, a good person, you know, might have done it differently, but that's just who he was. 

AJ: Or at the very least call 9 1 1 and say like, this woman just got outta my cab, just fell down a large embankment, can you go see what's up," you know? 

Katie: Well, yeah. And you'd think if she did run away from his car, if she whipped out her cane, he definitely would've seen that she was blind and maybe just by the way she was running and maybe hit that wall, he would've known she couldn't see properly. Right? So you'd think he'd be like, oh shit, like maybe I should help her, because it's obvious now that she's blind because I mean, it's not like she would've ran straight if she didn't know where she was. So I, yeah, I just feel like it's hard for me to believe that after all of that, he still didn't know until the police told him that she was blind.

AJ: Maybe he's just dumb. I don't know. 

Stephanie: Cab drivers themselves, like how many people have gotten kicked out of cabs for either not paying or being too drunk? I know there's multiple times where a friend of ours would just get kicked out of a cab because he was too drunk. Cab drivers don't want that in their cab. 

AJ: Yeah. But then why lie about it?

Stephanie: I guess? 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. 

AJ: Wouldn't he just say like, oh, she was drunk and didn't want to pay, so I told her to get out. Why make up this weird, convoluted story that didn't happen? 

Stephanie: Maybe he didn't wanna get fired. I don't know.

AJ: I don't think he would get fired though. Would he get fired for kicking someone out of his cab who didn't wanna pay? I don't think that's...

Katie: No, I don't think... 

Stephanie: No, I don't think so either. 

Katie: ...get fired for that. 

Stephanie: Now that I think of it ,no. I mean I've never gotten kicked out of a cab though, but...

Katie: Yeah, same.

Stephanie: I don't know.

Katie: But...

Stephanie: I've been drunk enough in the cab, but I've never got kicked outta one, so I dunno. 

Katie: Yeah, I'm just thinking... 

AJ: Maybe you did, you just don't remember. 

Stephanie: I also don't remember fumbling around trying to look for money, either trying to pay a cab, like I don't, I don't know. I don't like cabs anyways. I prefer to walk. But... 

AJ: Uber. 

Stephanie: Yeah, I don't, I don't know. They're sketchy at the best of times. 

Katie: Yeah. 

AJ: Especially the Halifax ones. 

Katie: Yeah. Really God, I have some horror stories about them. But anyway, so in conclusion I think just that maybe because of the fact that she wound up dead and he was the last one to have seen her, that he didn't want to put himself in any kind of compromising situation. So he just said that he dropped her off and left and that's the end of his involvement and that's why the story came out the way it did. So, yeah, super interesting. Mysterious case. Super tragic. So that's Holly Bartlett's story. Thanks for joining us and next week will be our season four finale. So get ready for that. I'm excited. 

AJ: Yeah, it's gonna be a two-parter, so it's actually crazy that we're at the season four finale already. Like that's pretty crazy. Well I was gonna say interesting that you had sort of a connection to the case this week, your university and I do with next week's case. So... 

Katie: Yeah, so that's interesting. It always adds a bit more interesting when you actually have a personal connection to the place and places that things happen. So it'll be interesting for sure. I'm looking forward to it. So hopefully you guys enjoy it as well and we'll see you next week.

You can find us on Facebook @ Crime Family Podcast and you can find us on Instagram @crimefamilypodcast and also on Twitter @crimefamilypod1. We also have a Patreon, so you can check that out. And we have a website, crimefamilypodcast.ca. Check us out. Okay. Bye. 

AJ: Merch store as well.

Katie: And we also have merch. That's right. We'll have all the links in the show notes if you wanna check any of that out. So see you next time. Bye. 

Stephanie: Bye. 

AJ: Bye.