S04E07: MR BIG: THE CASE OF SEBASTIAN BURNS AND ATIF RAFAY

Katie: Coming up on this episode of Crime Family.

 Speaker: Uh, there's, uh, I need, uh, an ambulance.

911 Call: Okay. What's the problem there?

 Speaker: There's some kinda break in. My friend, his mom and dad. Uh, are they're, we think they're dead.

Katie: Yeah. The DNA evidence points away. The circumstantial evidence obviously points towards them. The confession doesn't look good for them. But then the circumstances around the confession, you know, aren't favorable. He was convinced that the police were trying to frame them and that their only hope of getting out of this situation that the police had created, was for the police, the undercover police, to help them, and they wouldn't help them unless Sebastian and Atif told them exactly how they did it. So you see this dilemma that they're in.

AJ: Before we start today's episode, we just wanna let you know about our patron community. If you like the show and you want exclusive extras, like add free content, bonus episodes, a private community to connect with us, free merch, and an exclusive new True Crime series Doc Talk, consider becoming a patron. Doc Talk is like a book club for true crime documentaries. Each month, we'll select a new doc to watch and discuss it in full. We'll take your questions and discuss the topics you want. You have access to this exclusive new series at a tier three membership, as well as all the other extras I mentioned. Join us on Patreon to continue the true crime conversation and build a community. We'd love to have you. By signing up today, you'll also get automatic access to our bonus episodes, including one about Sarah Boone, known as the Suitcase Killer, one about the updates in the Adnan Syad case and a Halloween one. So check out the show notes for the link to become a patron today, or go to patreon.com/crime family podcast. Also, we've recently launched our exclusive merch store on Red Bubble. We're so excited to have the official Crime Family logo and designs on everything from t-shirts to stickers to mugs and hats. Check out our merch store to help support the show at the link in the show notes.

Katie: Hey everyone. Welcome to Crime Family. I'm Katie, and I'm here with my brother AJ and sister Steph. And today we are going to dive into a Mr. Big case. I've been thinking about doing a mini-series about Mr. Big cases, but just haven't had the time to knock them all out at the same time. So I'm just gonna scatter them, I guess. I find Mr. Big super interesting and it's controversial for sure in Canada. So before we get started, what do you guys know about Mr. Big or Mr. Big tactic in Canada?

AJ: I know a little bit. I know one of the cases I did early on in the first season that we did involved a Mr. Big operation, so I obviously know it from then. Then I recently watched a true crime documentary that was about a specific case, but Mr. Big, the Mr Big tactic was a huge portion of the case and what led to it being solved. So I do know quite a bit, but obviously I don't know all the intricate details.

Stephanie: Yeah, same. I know a little bit about it and I've also watched some documentaries on it, but like AJ said, I don't know what the overall in-depth version of Mr. Big is. So I'm interested to learn.

Katie: Yeah, so we have done a couple Mr. Big cases here on the podcast. I'm not gonna go into a deep dive. I'm just gonna go into a little bit deeper maybe than we did, but I'm gonna talk about one of the most infamous Mr. Big cases. So Mr. Big Operations are used by Canadian law enforcement when they think they know who committed a serious crime, such as a murder, but they just cannot get enough physical evidence to get a conviction, or they feel they don't have enough evidence to present to a jury to convict without a reasonable doubt, and they basically need a confession to move forward with getting that conviction. It's essentially an undercover operation, and this tactic is illegal in a lot of other countries, such as the US, because it is very close to entrapment and entrapment is when law enforcement provokes or convinces someone to commit a crime that they would not normally commit without that influence from the undercover agent. Mr. Big gets people to confess to crimes that they haven't confessed to under normal circumstances. In some cases, of course, some believe that they falsely confess due to the setup that they are involved in. The suspects are involved in these elaborate setups and that's what makes them falsely confess. In a nutshell, this is how Mr. Big operations go down. The undercover officer or agent, they create this fictitious crime world. Basically, they create a scenario typically where they themselves are part of some criminal organization and they make this set of circumstances where they happen to cross paths with the suspect and eventually they befriend them. They watch and follow and sometimes wiretap their suspects to really get to know them, to meticulously figure out how to make their made up organization appealing, or they're meetup and friendship realistic. So this can take weeks, often months, to gain the trust of the suspect who is often isolated from friends and family because of the alleged crime that they committed. Once they befriend this person, they lure them into their organization. They get them to do seemingly real crimes on their behalf that are completely set up by the police. Things like picking up money or maybe picking up drugs. They are paid real money for these jobs. So everything seems legit and once they feel like they're in, the undercover cop tells 'em that their big boss wants to meet them or they have a bigger job for them, or they want to officially welcome them into the organization. Things along those lines, so the suspect feels like, you know, they're in now and they're told that they need to have some sort of collateral on them, so that they know that they won't go and report anything to the police, or they just want details from them so that there is no secrets within this group to establish trust. Of course, what they ask for is details on the crimes that this person has committed, and of course, specifically on the one that they're trying to get a confession for. The suspect has to admit to the crime and give them details about how they committed it and things like that. There's even examples when the undercover agents are telling them that they can protect them from the police, but only if they know everything. Once the suspect reveals to them what they did, of course they're arrested and this is used in court as their confession. There's obvious issues with this tactic. Of course, many believe, like I said, it encourages false confessions because under normal circumstances, they wouldn't or have not confessed. We all know that, of course, people do confess to crimes that they did not commit. Like I said, I'm gonna talk about one of the most infamous Mr. Big cases, and this is the Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay case. That's where I'm gonna get started. Do you guys know anything about this case at all?

AJ: I don't.

Stephanie: Same. I've never heard of it.

AJ: I was just gonna ask if it is Canadian, but obviously if it's a Mr. Big tactic.

Katie: I'm surprised you guys haven't heard of it cuz it is one of the biggest Mr. Big cases out there. Yeah, it is Canadian but it also is American and Canadian cuz the crimes actually happened in the States which makes it even more controversial. So I'll just, I'll get into it.

AJ: I can see why it's controversial and why it shouldn't be used. So close to entrapment but I feel like if the person who did something terrible is out confessing to it, it doesn't really matter how that confession's reached. Right?

Katie: Yeah, if it's true, I guess. But if it's not true and they're just pressured into it, then...

AJ: You can't really tell the difference.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. Okay, so the Confession Tapes on Netflix season one, episode one and two go into detail about this case, and they show lots of actual footage of the Mr. Big sting. A lot of people say that these episodes do seem to be a bit biased towards them being innocent, so keep that in mind if you do watch it. Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay were best friends who were attending high school in West Vancouver, British Columbia. They were both very smart and people described them as intellectuals. They were 18 years old when this story first starts. The Rafay family was from North Vancouver and they had just moved to Bellevue, Washington in the States in the summer of 1994. It was Dr. Tariq Rafay, his wife, Dr. Sultana Rafay, their son Atif, and their daughter Basma. Atif was attending Cornell University, and Sebastian, who was living in Vancouver, was at their new house in Bellevue, visiting with everyone. Sebastian had been there for about five days when him and Atif decided to go out for a bit on the night of July 12th, 1994. They left the house around 8:30 PM. They went to The Keg restaurant for something to eat, and from there they went across the street to watch a movie, and then they head over to Seattle to grab some more food and check out some of the local nightclubs. Then they finally head back to Atif's parents' place in Bellevue. When they get back, this is now July 13th, and they find a horrific scene. They find Mrs. Rafay lying on the floor with blunt force trauma to her head. There's blood everywhere. Mr. Rafay was found in his bed with blood spatter and brain matter all over the bed and walls. Basma Rafay, the sister was found still alive when they arrived at the home, but sadly she died later in the hospital. So it's around 2:01 AM when Sebastian Burns calls 911 telling them there has been a break-in at his friend's house and he thinks his friend's parents and sister are dead. I'm gonna play that 911 call for you.

911 Call: What are you reporting?

 Speaker: Uh, there's, uh, I need, uh, an ambulance.

911 Call: Okay. What's your problem there?

 Speaker: There's been some kind of break in.

911 Call: Okay, well, calm down. What's the problem?

 Speaker: The, the, the, the two, uh, uh, my friends, his mom and dad, uh, are, they're, I, I we think they're dead.

911 Call: Just calm down.

 Speaker: I, I, I don't think it's safe here. I want, we'll, we'll be outside.

911 Call: Okay, go ahead. Go outside.

 Speaker: Please, fast.

911 Call: Okay they're on the way.

 Speaker: Okay.

911 Call: They're on the way.

 Speaker: I'll be outside.

911 Call: Okay, go ahead.

Katie: So do you guys have any initial thoughts about that 9 1 1 call?

Stephanie: From what I heard, I think he's just a frantic person trying to figure out what happened to these people. To me, he doesn't really sound suspicious. I think he's just a normal 9 1 1 call. He doesn't really know what to say. He doesn't really know what to do. So to me it just seems like a horrible thing happened.

AJ: To me there were parts that sounded a little, I wanna say fake or forced. I don't know. I mean, I'm scared to say because if it is real and he wasn't faking than I feel bad. But when I was listening to parts of it, I was like, "Yeah, that's a weird way he said that, or it sounded like maybe he was putting on an act or something." I don't know. That's just part of it. Some of the things that he was saying or how he said them, he said like, "We think they're dead." I don't know. That's just initially what I thought of.

Katie: So, yeah, that's actually exactly what the police feel like too. When they listen back to it, they feel like it is forced or he is putting on a bad act. That's their initial thought as well. When police do show up on the scene, they seem suspicious of Sebastian and Atif's behavior right away because, you know, as we all know, there's no right way to act in a situation like this. Police think their behavior is just odd for people in their situation. For example, Atif tells police that he could hear his sister moaning in the room, but he said he didn't bother to go check on her because he knew there was nothing that he could do anyway. Even though he had just seen his parents murdered bodies covered in blood, he tells police that his Walkman or his portable CD player and the VCR are missing from the house. That's what he notices, and that's what he seems to be concerned about. They say that Sebastian was acting as if it was an inconvenience to have to talk to the police at all, and for some reason they find it weird that they're both standing outside the house waiting for them when they pull up. Atif is smoking a cigarette, and they're just like, "Why are they both calmly standing outside the house after this has happened?" I don't really know what they're expecting. You know, we heard in the call they didn't feel like they were safe in the house. I wouldn't wanna be in the house either if my whole family was dead inside. I don't know what police are expecting them to be doing, but they find it weird that they're standing outside the house calmly. Maybe calmly is the suspicious part. I don't know. But anyway, that's what the police are noticing right off the bat. They take them down to the station for questioning. They swab their clothes for blood evidence, and they find nothing, no evidence on their clothes. The police put Sebastian and Atif up in a motel for the time being to get some sleep, and they tell them that they will be in touch. So for the next three days, they stay at this motel and they're questioned by the Bellevue Police Department continuously. Once the police dig a little bit deeper into the situation, they can tell that everything is not as it seems apparently. They tell the Confession Tapes that they can tell that the scene was a staged robbery. There was boxes that had been knocked over and not actually rummaged through, as you would expect if someone was actually looking for something. They think that Sebastian saying that there was some kind of break-in on the 911 call was suspicious because it was a murder scene, not just a break-in. So they're thinking, "Why wouldn't he put more emphasis on the fact that it's a murder?" I don't know. It's not like Sebastian was saying, "Oh, there's a break-in, and they stole the VCR." He did say there was a break-in and he thinks his friend's parents are dead, so, I mean, I think they're just nitpicking every little thing that's happening, and they're just looking for an excuse to point the finger at these two at this point. They dig into Atif and Sebastian's alibi as is expected. Like I said, they were out for most of the night before they came back to find the murder scene. The detectives look into where they went that night and everywhere they went, people did remember seeing them. They said at one place they had ordered a salad and wine and the detectives explained that they think they ordered the wine just so that they would get their IDs checked and people would remember them as two Canadians ordering liquor that night. Purposely setting themself up for an alibi. The dinner before the club, the waitress said she remembered them because they had left a big tip, and then the nightclub bouncer said that he remembered them because it was 20 minutes before close and he wouldn't let them in because they were getting ready to shut down for the night. The detectives are thinking that each of these pieces was thought out to give them a solid alibi. Every step of the way somebody will remember them and tell the police that. They think it's planned. Three days after the murder, Sebastian and Atif decide to go back to Vancouver, cuz that's where Sebastian's family was and they did inform the Bellevue Police that they were going back to Vancouver. They even got approval that they were allowed to leave, and so they hopped on a Greyhound bus and headed to Vancouver. The police were aware that they were leaving, but for some reason it was reported in the media that they had fled to Canada so there's this misunderstanding or miscommunication right out of the gate with this case. Some think that it was a purposeful act by the police with the intent to paint them as suspicious right from the get-go so they report to the media that they've fled to Canada, when really that's not what was happening. Something else that people and police thought was suspicious was that the funeral was a couple days after the murders, but Atif did not attend the funeral. He was apparently very upset that he wasn't informed about the ceremony. However, since his family was Muslim, it's customed to bury the dead within three days, and I guess it's the family's responsibility to wash and prepare the bodies. So it wasn't like outsiders had come in and done all of this without the family being prepared and it's speculated that Atif would have known these customs, so it's not like their prompt burial should have been a surprise to him, and he had left the country at this point anyway, so they're thinking that's suspicious. Even if he was aware of this custom, that doesn't necessarily mean that he knew it was happening. I would think that maybe since it was a murder scene, maybe he thought that they would be keeping the bodies longer for D N A processing or gathering evidence, you know and things like that, cuz my first thought would be that that takes longer than three days to gather evidence and process everything. But in this case, that three day timeline for the Muslim custom was respected and Atif was the only family member that had missed the funeral so people just, you know, think that that is not looking good for him. A few months later, there was a memorial service in British Columbia for the family that Atif and Sebastian do attend, and there's videos of Atif and Sebastian there, and there's news reporters trying to talk to them. When they're asking Atif, "Why wouldn't he talk to the police?" It shows him running to a car, getting in the car with a bunch of friends, kind of laughing and then speeding away from the cameras. They did stop cooperating with the Bellevue Police, but that was apparently because their lawyers had told them to stop talking to them. There's this narrative of, "Oh, they're being, you know, very cagey, not wanting to cooperate," but it's actually their lawyers telling them to stop. So you can see how both sides are playing the media here. So of course some say that because they are only teenagers, cuz remember they're only 18 at this point, this is a coping mechanism for them and that they're maybe not expressing themselves the way others would expect them to. So Ken Klonsky, who is a wrongful convictions scholar, tells the Confession Tapes that this is not unusual behavior for grieving teenagers or young adults. He also says that they're acting as if they're in shock, and he makes a good point by saying that if they had planned all of the murders out and were trying to play the part of the innocent grieving kids, then they would be playing that part. They'd be playing the sad, scared teenagers. They would be the grieving son and his friend crying at the funeral, et cetera. But they really weren't doing that. They weren't playing that part because he says they weren't acting. How they were acting wasn't planned and that's just how they were coping with this traumatic event. So something else that people point the finger at them for that makes them not look good, is that when the insurance payout was made, Atif went on a spending spree. Him and Sebastian bought a Mustang convertible. They went on a road trip. They were living in Vancouver with a friend named Jimmy Miyoshi, and they were having parties all night blaring music and so people thought that this was just inappropriate behavior. So they're in Vancouver, which is in Canada, and the RCMP, which is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, they get involved and before they even roll out the Mr Big operation, they get approval to bug their apartment to try and gain some valuable information from them, but they really don't gain anything from that. This is when they figured that they would need some extra efforts to get these two suspects. So keep in mind, they're basically convinced that they're guilty and now they just need to be able to prove it. This is where Mr. Big comes in. This is how it's set up. They already have the wire tap on the house so they know where they're going to be, and they set this whole thing up so that when Sebastian's out getting a haircut, he runs into one of them in the parking lot. The undercover agent meets him in the parking lot saying that he locked his keys in his car and he offers Sebastian a hundred dollars if he'll give him a ride and help him out. Sebastian does, and then they get to talking and eventually they go out to a bar and get some beers or whatever, and that's it. That's how it starts. They start introducing Sebastian to this criminal organization. They get him to do some small jobs at first, and in the beginning, Sebastian apparently isn't too thrilled about doing illegal work for them, but he does eventually come around and he expresses that he's interested in doing even more, and allegedly even says he's willing to be a paid hitman. But at this point, he still denies that he had anything to do with the Rafay murders. Throughout their meetings and jobs, they're gaining Sebastian's trust and because of the way the media has portrayed him and Atif, Sebastian is looked at as if he's a killer, so it's hard for him to get a job, hard for him to make friends. He can't go to school, and so being a part of this gang seems like the only option he really has out there for him. The undercover cops are telling him about how they have killed people before. They've beat people up and they have lots of money, real money that they're flaunting around as well and so its enticing for him, for sure. In the Confession Tapes, they play a lot of their actual interactions with Sebastian. So yeah, definitely check that out if you want more in-depth details. But when they first ask him about his involvement with the triple homicide, Sebastian says, "They think that I am the murderer." When he is pressed further, he says it's because they were at the house and the police just don't have any other leads. He says," I am not worried about it because forensically or whatever, they don't have a particularly big case, but they made it a big deal." Apparently he denies over and over again that he had anything to do with it. They push back, you know, really hard. They say, "You know, stop the bullshit. Like we read the report, it says this black and white, basically, that the police know you killed them. Tell us the truth. We know you're lying." Of course they're very intimidating throughout all of this. And so, yeah, like we've seen in other cases, the police are very hell bent on getting these two basically kids for this murder, and they tend to disregard other leads that have come in about this case. So one theory that is particularly interesting is the theory that it could have been an Islamic fundamentalist person or group that murdered the family because Dr. Rafay was an engineer and he was also into more modern Islamic beliefs, I guess, than some of the traditional or conservative Islamic beliefs. So he gave lectures and taught about modern Islam, but he had also discovered that there was a miscalculation in what was determined to be true east in Canada. So true east is the direction in which Muslims pray and he suggested that their prayer mats be moved one or one and a half degrees to line up with the actual true east. This as well as his stance on Islam was very offensive to more of the conservative Muslims. So there are speculation that this could have gotten him and his family murdered. Some people think that if this had happened after, you know, the terrorist attacks of 9 11, that maybe this theory would've gotten a little bit more traction, and maybe they would've looked into this more and they think that maybe Sebastian and Atif would not have, you know, been looked at so closely because they would've agreed with this theory a little bit more. So that's just something interesting to think about. So another lead comes in from an actual RCMP officer saying that he had an informant who told him that there was a hit out on an East Indian family living in Vancouver, BC, and he had this information before the family was murdered but of course he had no idea which family the hit was referring to. Even though the family didn't live in Vancouver anymore, they had just recently moved. Of course, once he learned about the Rafay family murders, he connected the dots and he told the Bellevue police about it, but there's nothing to suggest that this tip ever went anywhere. Nobody seriously looked into it. So another tip came in from the Seattle Police to the Bellevue Police saying that they believed that a group called Al-Fuqra was involved. And this was a terrorist organization in the US who have in the past attacked people who they believed were enemies of Islam, including other Muslims, and interestingly, this group is thought to have been involved in the slaying of an East Indian family in Washington in 1984 who were close friends with the president of Alpha Engineering, which is where Dr. Rafay worked when he was murdered as well. So those are just interesting connections. And one more interesting theory was the FBI even contacted the Bellevue Police Department and told them that they had an informant who had information about the Rafay murders. This informant knew who had ordered the murder of the family. He says he knew who the two men were who committed the murders. He even said one of the men showed him a baseball bat in the trunk of his car and then, he came to the conclusion that that was the murder weapon that he was showing him. And this was just a few days after the murder that he had showed him this. This was before the police even knew that the murder weapon was a baseball bat. But then they later concluded that that is what the murder weapon was. This informant literally gave the police the actual names of the people who he thought were responsible. Their phone numbers, their addresses, photos of them, but they didn't take it too seriously. One reason was because they also gave them a long list of names and they think that maybe this was an extremist organization so they figured that this wasn't exactly a good lead cuz it could, you know, be any one of these people on this list. They just didn't follow up. So those theories seem like they could have, you know, definitely brought some insight into what really happened if you believe that Atif and Sebastian are innocent. I guess what makes this case so interesting is that there is evidence both for and against Atif and Sebastian, and so I guess you have to decide what is the most compelling. Some of the evidence that points away from them is that there was a hair found on Dr. Rafay that didn't match anyone in the family, or Sebastian. They don't have a match for this one hair. There are blood stains in the garage that are a mix of the victims and some other unknown person that doesn't match Sebastian or Atif. Due to the neighbor's account, recalling when they or what they heard on the night of the murders, the police say that the murders took place around 9:00 to 9:30 PM and Sebastian and Atif were known or thought to be at the movie theater at this time, and they had the movie tickets to prove it.

AJ: Couldn't they have just bought a movie ticket and then left the theater?

Katie: Yeah, that's actually exactly what comes out later. So some other evidence is that they know the killer showered after the murders as there was Dr. Rafay's blood all over the shower when they sprayed it with a blood detection agent that was mixed with some other unknown blood as well. There was a bunch of hair in the shower as well that came back as Sebastian's so they concluded that he had to be the last one to shower because it was only his hair that they had found in there. I don't really wanna talk about shower hair, so I'll move on.

AJ: Gross. I was just gonna say gross.

Katie: I know.

AJ: Move on.

Katie: Ah! My stomach hurts. So in the washing machine that night, the police also found Sebastian and Atif's underwear, which had already gone through a wash cycle, just their underwear, and so when that underwear was tested, there was no evidence at all present on that. So there's conflicting situations happening here for sure. So what are you guys' thoughts so far? What are you leaning towards right now?

AJ: I don't really know what to think. When you were saying that they found that hair on the body that didn't match anyone and that they found blood in the garage that was a mixture between unknown people. To me, that's DNA evidence that points to someone else. So knowing that, I can't then be like, "Oh, well it's probably them." Also everything else that you've been saying about the case makes me think that it might be them because they're just sketchy and their actions are making me think it is them. So I don't really know. I would've been like, "Yes, I think it's them." But then when you mentioned someone else's hair, it's like, "Hmm, I don't really know."

Katie: I know it's hard to get over the DNA evidence, but then when you think about some of those other theories, it's like, "Well, why didn't they look into those?" It almost seems like they had tunnel vision, like we've seen before, on these two people.

AJ: Yeah. We know how the cops love to just focus on one person. So I mean, that's not unusual. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like you can't refute, I always say you can't refute DNA evidence, but can we really refute DNA evidence? I mean, there's DNA evidence that points to someone else. It's like, "Why would someone else's blood be in the garage?"

Katie: Yeah, especially mixed with the victims, right? I mean, if there was some random person's puddle of blood, it could be, you know, just from a different time, but it was mixed with the victim's blood so we obviously know that they interacted with the victims. So yeah.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Katie: It doesn't make sense. If it was Atif and Sebastian, where's this other blood come from? So it really doesn't make sense.

AJ: Yeah, that is weird.

Katie: So as part of the Mr Big investigation, they set up a press release that is saying that they are going to be testing some DNA evidence that they have and that they are expecting that forensics will point to Sebastian and Atif. This is actually false. They made up this whole actual press release in the news, but it's not real. It's just to create this whole false narrative that the police are honing in on these two boys and they're trying to turn up the pressure on them. The undercover agents give Sebastian a fake police memo saying that they are getting ready to file charges against them, which actually again isn't true because they really don't have enough evidence against them. In the Confession Tapes, it shows video conversation that Sebastian has with the agents and he's confused about how the evidence they're talking about is leading to him. He says, "I don't know what they're talking about when they say they found stains on the boxers in the washing machine." I guess they were told that they did find evidence on their underwear. Sebastian's saying, "I don't understand how?" He's saying the hair in the shower could have been from days ago cause he had been there for days, had showered. He said, "How do they know it is from that night?" He's saying he doesn't know anything about stains in the garage. He's just very confused about how they're pointing the finger at them with the DNA evidence. He's thinking there's no way, because you know, if it wasn't him, he'd be like, "Well that doesn't make any sense." So eventually Mr. Big does say that in order for him to help and get rid of all of the so-called evidence against them, he needs to know exactly what happened so that he knows what to expect when he goes in to destroy this evidence or whatever he is gonna do. Sebastian finally admits that he did it, that him and Atif did it, and he says that they actually did it during the movie, like you had just said. He said that they were there, they bought the tickets, but then they left before it was over. They committed the murders and then they went back out the rest of the night for the rest of their alibi. This is all on those tapes. When pressed further, he says that he used a baseball bat and he said that they did it naked so that they wouldn't have blood all over their clothes and that he did shower afterwards. He claims that they took the murder weapon and the missing VCR and Walkman, and that they dumped them in various dumpsters around Seattle so that they wouldn't ever be found and they never were. So all of this time, the police have been focusing on Sebastian and finally Sebastian brings Atif into one of the meetings with the two undercover agents so that he can corroborate what happened and so that the Mr. Big agents can be, you know, sure that this is what happened. Atif does go along with everything. He even says that they did it to set themselves up to be richer and more successful, in terms of getting their life insurance money. Atif later says that he was convinced that the police were trying to frame them as Mr. Big was telling them that the police were trying to do, and that their only hope of getting out of this situation that the police had created was for the police, the undercover police, to help them, and they wouldn't help them unless Sebastian and Atif told them exactly how they did it. So you can see this dilemma that they're in. If that isn't enough, remember that friend that I had mentioned briefly, Jimmy Miyoshi, this was the guy that they were living with in Vancouver, he was friends with them in high school as well, they claim that Jimmy knew everything as well, but when they bring him in, he says there's nothing to tell. Basically nothing happened for him to have to rat anyone out. Finally though, he does admit that he knows who committed the murders and he admits that it was Sebastian. Sebastian and Atif are arrested soon after, and those tapes of them talking to the Mr. Big officers are used as their confessions in court. Atif was actually offered some sort of deal if he turned on Sebastian, but he said that wouldn't be the truth and so he actually never did turn on Sebastian. Jimmy Miyoshi was also threatened with prosecution, but he was offered total immunity if he testified against Sebastian and Atif in court and so he of course took that deal, but he quickly moved to Japan. Sebastian's defense attorney fought to have the confession tapes thrown out and that it was a coerced confession. Like I said, Mr. Big is illegal in the States, and since they have been extradited to the states for trial, it seems like all that undercover work is for nothing. However, because it's not illegal in Canada, and the RCMP followed all the laws in Canada to obtain the confession, under International treaty, the judge allowed the tapes in court. So that was a huge letdown for the defense. One of Sebastian's defense attorneys, Teresa Olson, actually went to Tokyo to talk to Jimmy, and she was convinced that he had been manipulated as well. He was going to come back to the States and withdraw his statements that he had made against Atif and Sebastian. So that looked like it was gonna be a turning point for them as well. However, Teresa, the defense lawyer, was caught having sex with Sebastian, as reported by three police officers who caught them. Obviously she got taken off the case. Both the lawyers got taken off the case and they had to find new lawyers and start all over. So this situation, you know, put Sebastian in a bad light again, even though it really, it wasn't all him, it was obviously his lawyer was a part of it too. So eventually Jimmy did come back from Japan to testify against Atif and Sebastian because apparently he worked for an American company in Japan and he was allegedly threatened with being let go from his job. He said he felt that the company would find a way to fire him if he didn't cooperate with the prosecution. So in the beginning, he's threatened with prosecution himself if he doesn't cooperate, and then years later he's threatened again if he doesn't cooperate, so you can see why he would turn against his friends, whether they were guilty or not. Yeah. So on the tape, Sebastian basically tells the story that he was the one who killed everyone on his own, and that Atif, of course, was in on it and he was there, but he didn't participate in the actual killing. He wasn't even in the same room. But when they look at the blood spatter evidence on the walls, they can clearly see the outline of a person so they know that there was someone standing by the wall when the murders were taking place. They think that that was Atif standing there watching Sebastian. Other things that make them look maybe innocent, except there's some aspects of their stories that change and that usually makes someone look guilty, but when Sebastian is asked, you know, where they got the bat, he says that it was just kicking around the house, but when Atif is asked, he says that, "Oh, they had went out together and bought the bat." So that doesn't make sense. It's like they're both just making up what happened and they're both making up two different things. Sebastian says that all of their clothes that they were wearing were discarded into dumpsters all around in different places. Atif said that he just threw them out the window, and Sebastian backs it up by saying, "Well when he says threw them out the window, he means we got rid of them." But remember earlier Sebastian had said that they had done it naked, so why are they throwing their clothes out if they didn't have clothes on during the murders? It's like they don't really know what happened, and they're just saying stuff. Also, this is a loose theory, but a lot of sources will also talk about a high school play that Sebastian was in called The Rope, where the characters kill someone and try to get away with the perfect murder, and they compare his character in this play, who is someone that's very arrogant, who thinks he's superior to everyone, to Sebastian's real personality. So they're trying to link what happened in this play to something that Sebastian may have taken to heart and thought he could do himself. Cuz Sebastian, you know, he is very smart and he does know that about himself and he does, on the tapes to Mr. Big, say that he himself is one of the most intelligent people in the world. So yeah, maybe he is a little bit arrogant, but because of that, they're linking what happened in this play to Sebastian actually trying to act it out. Oh yeah. Also in the play, the weapon, the murder weapon was a baseball bat as well. It's just a coincidence maybe, or I don't know. One of the things that the Confession Tapes leaves out, cuz like I said, they're leading towards the boys being innocent, is this piece of cross-examination of Sebastian. It's short, but I'll play it for you now just so I can see what you think about it.

Court Room Audio: You got into a a, a a car collision, didn't you?

Sebastian: Yes.

Court Room Audio: And you were driving your family car at the time?

Sebastian: That's correct, yes.

Court Room Audio: I mean, you hit a pole in a parking lot. Did you own up to it at the time?

Sebastian: No, I did not.

Court Room Audio: Albeit, with this stupid little car crash, what you decided to do was to pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right?

Sebastian: Correct.

Court Room Audio: You put those back in your car, am I correct?

Sebastian: Correct.

Court Room Audio: You took them to an entirely different location in North Vancouver, am I right?

Sebastian: Correct.

Court Room Audio: And you staged a scene in a parking lot, am I right?

Sebastian: Basically.

Court Room Audio: You manipulated the evidence to appear as though it was something that it wasn't. Am I right?

Sebastian: Yes.

Court Room Audio: And the reason you did that, sir, was so that you could say that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I right?

Sebastian: Correct.

Court Room Audio: Sir. You weren't at the movies when that accident occurred, were you?

Sebastian: No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the second one is a homicide.

Court Room Audio: That's correct Mr. Burns. That is a difference.

Sebastian: And the difference is also that in the first case, I was responsible for the car accident and in the second case I had nothing to do with this homicide.

Katie: Okay, so this was, if it's not obvious, this is Sebastian talking about how one time he got in a car accident and then pretended he was at the movies so that he could stage it as if his car had been stolen. He had used that excuse before and gotten away with it. So what do you guys think about this?

AJ: Very suspicious. I also don't think that Sebastian's comebacks at the end of that are very good. Well, one, "I had nothing, I did the car accident and two, I had nothing to do with this." It's like, okay, well that doesn't prove anything cuz obviously you're gonna say you didn't have anything to do with this. Yeah, very suspicious. What are the chances that he would've done a similar thing and he's admitting to having done that in the past. So what are the chances that, I don't know, I just found it very strange that the same thing would also happen. I feel like he had to have done it, he'd done it before, he'd do it again. It's just, I don't know. It's very suspicious to me.

Stephanie: Yeah. I have to agree with AJ. I just find he's really arrogant.

AJ: He does seem very arrogant. But also too, I mean, wouldn't that be like, to take the other side for a second, isn't what the lawyer is saying or the prosecutor. Isn't that the definition of circumstantial evidence though? That is circumstantial. It would be very odd for it to happen twice. It is circumstantial. That doesn't prove necessarily.

Katie: Yeah, I think everything in this case is circumstantial because they really don't have DNA evidence to put them there during the murders.

AJ: I guess it's not that they don't have DNA, the DNA evidence that they do find doesn't point to them, which is also a big thing.

Katie: Yeah. The DNA evidence points away.

AJ: Yeah.

Katie: The circumstantial evidence obviously points towards them.

AJ: Yeah.

Katie: The confession doesn't look good for them, but then the circumstances around the confession, you know, aren't favorable. So it is very like, "Did they do it?" There's a debate. Of course the public, people say that they are wrongfully convicted. They of course say they're wrongfully convicted and yeah, so when you were saying he seems arrogant, that is one of the things that even at sentencing, the judge points out that his arrogance is obvious and one of the things that shows that he doesn't really have any remorse that he only thinks about himself. I mean, that's just part of who he is, I guess. It's really after the murders, this is where Mr. Big got involved in the beginning, here was Sebastian and Atif were starting a screenplay for a movie that they wanted to make called The Great Despisers, and it was about two people who were wrongfully convicted of a murder. Since they didn't have a job or any money cuz they weren't able to go to school or get a job or anything because of this crime, when they first meet Mr. Big, this is actually why they meet the big boss. He can potentially finance this movie for them. They're very eager to meet him so that they'll pay for their movie about being wrongfully convicted. I don't know if that looks good for them or not hearing about this movie so much. They did think this was gonna be a big thing for them and it was gonna make them millions. They said that all the media around it was good for them, for the movie, because it was bringing up the hype for it and then once they were found innocent it would be like the real story behind the movie. They were definitely thinking that they were going to be let go. Not charged with the murders. Nine years after the murders took place, this is when the trial finally takes place. None of the other theories that I had talked about earlier, none of the other leads that came out were allowed in court. They couldn't mention them. They say that the police ignored a fingerprint that they had found in the shower that didn't belong to Sebastian or Atif or anyone in the family. They ignored the blood spatter in the shower, which you know, was mixed with the victims and some unknown person. They ignored the bloodstain in the garage, and so because of all this, they were found guilty of three counts of murder and sentenced to life without parole for all three, and each term would run consecutively, so one after the other. They really didn't have a chance to get outta jail. It was reported by the Fifth Estate in 2015 that after 20 years of being in prison, Sebastian had spent almost half of his time in prison in solitary confinement, and he is now psychologically unstable. Rafay has been attending university behind bars. He has a blog and he submits his writing to publication. He has done interviews with the Fifth Estate, and of course Sebastian has basically, you know, absolved from reality, sadly. In 2016, C B C reported that there was three innocence projects that had taken up the Burns and Rafay case, but as far as I know, nothing had come out of that. Sebastian has exhausted all of his appeals, but Atif did have one left when Sebastian didn't have any, and it's hard to find up-to-date information on that outcome. Obviously, he's still in jail, but I don't know if his appeal was denied or if they're still working on it. There's not clear information about that. It looks like maybe he's still working on an appeal. Interestingly, in 2014, there was a Supreme Court ruling that Mr. Big usage in Canada was going to be much more restricted and could only be used during very specific circumstances. Some previous Mr. Big cases would be looked at again to see if they fall into those restricted categories. Those convicted might have a chance to have a retrial, but it's unlikely that this case fits into that situation, and so will probably never be looked at again and they're never gonna get outta jail. So what are your final thoughts?

AJ: So sketchy. I still don't know what happened. If they did it or not. I feel like you can't refute DNA evidence. There was other blood from other people there. You can't, I feel like DNA evidence conquers over anything else. You have to believe the DNA evidence, but everything else just seems so sketchy and so suspicious. If it wasn't for that little bit of DNA evidence that pointed away from them, like I would think, "Oh, a hundred percent they did it." It sounds very logical, but I don't know. So I'm leaning towards, no, but I don't know.

Katie: Yeah, it makes me lean towards no as well, just because yeah, the DNA evidence, but I'm not a hundred percent there. I'm not convinced, but, I don't know. Then sometimes because I mean, Rafay still does interviews and just listening to him talk and it's like, "Oh, you know, I don't know. Maybe they didn't." But the circumstances are so sketchy. So yeah, I'm still on the fence.

Stephanie: Yeah, same. I don't know if they did or didn't do it. The DNA is there, but yeah, it's really, it's a really tough one. I don't know. I feel bad. Well, I don't really feel bad for Sebastian cuz I know he had me questioning him the whole time.

AJ: Well, I mean, I do feel bad if he is wrongfully convicted. I still feel bad for him. Even if he's an ass. He shouldn't be in jail forever for a crime he didn't do, but...

Stephanie: True, yes. Yeah, it's a hard one. I don't know. I'm, yeah, I'm on the fence like you guys.

Katie: What are your opinions on Mr. Big? Do you think it should be allowed still or should it be banned or do you think it's acceptable in some cases? What do you think?

AJ: I don't know. That's also another question that I am torn. I feel like, I just think about the case that I did back in the first season, the Karissa Boudreau case. One of our first episodes had a Mr. Big tactic involved in that and it led to a confession and she actually did it and now she's in jail so in that way it led to justice. But I feel like it has the potential to cause so many more wrongful confessions or false confessions than it does actual confessions. But I don't, I don't know. I was gonna say on a case by case basis, but you can't really, because it has to be all or nothing. If you start to do case by case basis, then there's room for, you know, well, what makes this case it's allowed and this case it's not, you know, it gets kind of murky. I feel like it has to be all or nothing, and I just don't know whether it should be all or nothing. .

Katie: Yeah, I think when they're, they're reexamining when to use Mr. Big, and if there's people that are, they said that sometimes they would prey on those who are more vulnerable or, you know, maybe mentally ill or mentally challenged because they're more easily manipulated. People that are younger, isolated, you know, focus on those people because they don't have any other way out and they'd probably easily go along with this. So I think they're, you know, reevaluating the standards in which they can use it, which is good. But yeah, I just think there has to be a reason that it's illegal in almost every other country except Canada. So yeah, I'm on the fence about that as well. And I mean, the Fifth Estate does interview Mr. Big in this case. This is years later. He's one of the founders of the whole Mr. Big operation idea. Of course he backs it up completely still. He says there's nobody in jail right now that confessed for Mr. Big, that is, you know, wrongfully convicted.

AJ: Sure!

Katie: Even though some people who did confess to Mr. Big got arrested, they have been released because of other circumstances. So he says everyone in jail right now because of Mr. Big, you know, is guilty. So whether he's just defending that because, you know, it's his thing and obviously he's passionate about it, but there are a lot of skeptics and I still don't know where I stand either. Cause I feel like it does do good if they're getting people that actually did it.

AJ: Yeah. But also we see all the time, I'm going back to that making a murderer case with Brendan Dassey, you know how marginalized he was. Had a lower IQ. So he, you know, they sat him in a room and pretty much pressured him and said, "No, we know you did this," and eventually you're gonna get a confession out of someone like that. Right? You sit anyone in a room long enough and tell them, put the pressure on and tell 'em that they did it over and over, I feel like a lot of people would probably confess to things that they didn't do. Then also we saw Jeffrey Deskovic, when we talked to him, they pretty much sat him in a room and interrogated him and told him that we know you did this, and told him over and over and over again and he even confessed and he didn't do it. So it can happen.

Katie: Yeah. And this show, the Confession Tapes that I was talking about, there's two seasons and each episode is a new case about people that have confessed on tape and they were innocent. They are found to be innocent. In most cases, they feel like they're all innocent of course, Rafay and Sebastian are thought to be innocent, but they're still in jail. Yeah. So there's lots of people that will confess to the crimes they didn't commit. So it's interesting.

AJ: Yeah, very weird. I don't know where I stand on this. I can't really say definitively one way or the other if I think they did it or not. I would lean more towards a no, just based on the DNA, but everything else is just so sketchy, so I don't know. But I mean, you have to go with the DNA. The DNA doesn't lie, right? If there's DNA from someone else. I'm a big believer in DNA. I don't know.

Katie: I know, and I mean, you say they act sketchy. Yes, but they, I mean, remember too, they were only 18 when this happened and they're being, you know, interrogated by these professional Mr. Big cops. They're only 19. And so, and even in the Confession Tapes they talk to, you know, one of the experts in false confessions and he's saying that they had even done a Mr. Big sting on a DEA agent, so this professional who's trained and knows these tactics and even that person confessed to all these things that, you know, would've put him in jail for life, and even though, you know, he knew what to expect and he still, you know, was bragging about all this stuff. So they say it's just human nature, especially, you know, when you think you're gonna be in this gang and this tough guy to brag yourself up or whatever, even if it's not true. So yeah, there's psychology behind it. Super interesting. I still don't know where I stand, but, I'll try and dig up some more Mr. Big cases for us to talk about.

So that's it for today's case. Thanks for joining us, everyone. We'll see you next time. You can join us on all the social medias Facebook @Crime Family Podcast, Instagram @crimefamilypodcast, and Twitter @crimefamilypod1. You can check out our website, crimefamilypodcast.ca, and you can email us crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com and check out our Patreon if you want more content, more episodes, and you can find that link in the show notes. You can also check out our merch provided by Red Bubble, and that link is in the show notes as well.

So hope to see you next time. Thank you. Bye

AJ: Bye.