S04E06: THE IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS

AJ: Coming up on this episode of Crime Family.

The University of Idaho student killings that took place in Moscow, Idaho just two weeks ago from this recording date. It had been reported that the roommates were concerned about one of the others being passed out in her room, which prompted them to call 9 1 1, not knowing that they actually had a quadruple murder on their hands.

Stephanie: Well, to me, when I'm looking at it, it looks literally like blood, like I can see it. What else would that be? Most crime scenes when you see blood, that's what it looks like.

Katie: Yeah. That's what makes me think, if you're trying to sneak into a house and not be noticed, you probably would go through the back because there's no direct houses facing that back door.

AJ: So there's still a lot we don't know. This is very sketchy, very suspicious, and ultimately very sad for these four university students.

Katie: Yeah, and it has only been two weeks, so I mean it is super early still in the investigation.

AJ: Hi everyone. Welcome back to Crime Family. I'm your co-host, AJ. I'm here with my two sisters, Stephanie and Katie, just like always. Before we start today's episode, we just wanna let you know about our patron community. If you like the show and you want exclusive extras, like ad free content, bonus episodes, a private community to connect with us, free merch and an exclusive new true crime series Doc Talk, consider becoming a patron. Doc Talk is like a book club for true crime documentaries. Each month we'll select a new doc to watch and discuss it in full. We'll take your questions and discuss the topics you want. You have access to this exclusive new series at a tier three membership, as well as all the other extras I mentioned. Join us on Patreon to continue the true crime conversation and build a community. We'd love to have you. By signing up today, you'll also get automatic access to our bonus episodes, including one about Sarah Boone, known as the Suitcase Killer, one about the updates in the Adnan Syad case and a Halloween one. So check out the show notes for the link to become a patron today, or go to patreon.com/crime family podcast. Also, we've recently launched our exclusive merch store on Red Bubble. We're so excited to have the official crime family logo and designs on everything from t-shirts, to stickers to mugs and hats. Check out our merch store to help support the show at the link in the show notes.

For today's episode I'm gonna be talking about the University of Idaho student killings that took place in Moscow, Idaho just two weeks ago from this recording date. So because this case is still ongoing and it's still unsolved and it's developing, there's still a lot we don't know, and there are lots of theories going around out there, but very few concrete answers. I know for myself, I've seen this case coming up a lot in my social media and on the news. It's everywhere right now. So it's very high profile and it's perplexing me and I have a lot of questions and I just feel like I need to talk it out with people. So that's why I'm going to be discussing this case today. Like I said, there's still lots of unknowns because it's still so recent. It only happened two weeks ago from the recording date, so things are still coming in every day, so there's for sure gonna be lots of updates as we go along. In this episode, I'm gonna be walking you through the timeline of events, the 9 1 1 call, and the list of facts about what we know as of now and what information we still don't know, and hope will be coming somewhat soon.

 This case has hit the news in a big way and has become a case that has gained a lot of widespread attention and around the clock coverage, and it's proven to be very perplexing and I can't really wrap my head around it. It was just before noon on Sunday, November 13th, when police in Moscow, Idaho receive a 911 call from a University of Idaho student saying that one of their roommates and friend was unconscious in her room. When police arrived at the home, they found the murdered bodies of four people inside the home. The four victims were 21 year old, Madison Mogan, 21 year old Kaylee Goncalves 20 year old Xana Kernodle, and 20 year old Ethan Chapin. All four were students at the University of Idaho, and all four victims had been stabbed in their beds, which were on the second and third floors of the home. Three of the victims, Madison Mogan, Kaylee Goncalves, and Xana Kernodle all lived in the home, and then the fourth victim, Ethan Chapin, was just there, he was sleeping over with his girlfriend, Xana, at the time of the murders. So it was a big three story, six bedroom home, and as far as we know, so there was only five people who were living in the house and there was one vacant bedroom, but because Ethan was there staying the night, there were six people in the home the night that this incident happened. So because there were six people in the home and there were four that were murdered, there were two people that were not harmed, and both of them had bedrooms on the main floor of the house, and they were not harmed they did not wake up or hear anything during the murders, allegedly. The next morning it had been reported that the roommates were concerned about one of the others being passed out in her room, which prompted them to call 911, not knowing that they actually had a quadruple murder on their hands. CNN reports that the two girls "summoned friends to the residents because they believed one of the second floor victims had passed out and was not waking up." Police had never released the audio or a transcript of what the 911 call contained, and they also have not said who it was that actually called and initially spoke to the operator, but it has been reported that the 9 1 1 operator spoke to several people who were at the scene during the call. The police have said that one of the two surviving roommates cell phones was used for the call. So for some reason they're being very cagey about the details of the 9 1 1 call. They aren't really, they were very hesitant to even say what they have said and they wouldn't release audio of the call. They haven't released the transcript and when asked, they wouldn't really say who was the one who called, or whose cell phone was used or who they spoke to. None of that information was anything that they were releasing, which was frustrating for a lot of people, and I know for the families and stuff too, there's a lot of frustration with the lack of information that's coming out from the police. That's just one example of it. When police arrived on the scene, the door to the home was open. Now, I don't know if for sure, all reports just say that the door was open. I don't know if that means that it was wide open, like actually physically open or if it just means that it was unlocked, but the door to the home was open and police did not notice any signs of forced entry or any damage to the home. Kaylee Goncalves's dog was also found in the residence alive and unharmed, and the dog has been given over to animal services once they discovered the dog there. That part about the dog is gonna come in a little bit later as somewhat important potentially. So all four victims were pronounced dead right after noon as soon as the police arrived on the scene and the investigation immediately began into what happened that night. Police were somehow able to determine that all four victims were killed between 3:00 and 4:00 AM, so that would've been roughly 8 to 9 hours before the discovery of the bodies. The police have ruled out the two surviving roommates or the friends that were at the home when the police arrived as suspects. So they don't think that they actually had anything to do with it. Now I just wanna go back to the details of the 911 call or what we know about it because there's a few things to me that seem very odd. So the police have come out and said that the person who called 9 1 1 reported an unconscious person. I'll get into it a little bit later, but they were all out the night before at different parties around town and so, you know, it was a Sunday morning. The two roommates that had survived, you know, they probably woke up, you know, 10 o'clock or whatever. For some reason they were concerned that one of the roommates was maybe passed out in her room. Maybe they saw that she had drank a lot the night before, or maybe they thought, you know, they just wanted to check on her, but when they called, they said that there was an unconscious person, so they didn't say, you know, "Someone is dead in their bed, there's blood everywhere." So to me, that suggests that they didn't actually go into the room because I feel like if they went into the room, they would've seen, I mean, the police came out and said later that it was a very bloody scene, as you would imagine, just based on the details that I'll get into. So the fact that they didn't mention anything about the blood, they didn't mention anything about them being dead, makes me think that they didn't actually enter the room, which is also weird. They said that they were trying to get her attention and she wasn't answering. They're probably knocking at the door, so maybe the door was locked. That makes me think the door was locked. They couldn't actually get in, cause otherwise they would probably just open the door, right, to check on her. So, if that's the case, it's very weird that the door would be locked because you can't lock the door from the outside. So how does someone go in, kill someone and then leave with a door locked behind them? It's very, very odd.

Katie: But you can lock a door from the outside depending on what kind of lock it is. Right? Like one of those doorknob push locks.

AJ: Yeah. But then they would've been able to unlock it from the outside too.

Katie: No, I mean, you can lock it from the inside. You lock it, the doorknob and then shut the door. Now it's locked.

AJ: Yeah. But then how did the person get out? Like someone goes into the room to kill them and then...

Katie: Yeah, the doors open. They lock it, the doorknob while it's still open and shut it and now it's locked. That's happened to me before. Like, I mean, you can lock yourself out of a room with those kind of locks, and that could happen in this situation.

AJ: Okay, that's true.

Katie: Yeah. If it was that kind of lock, like the doorknob lock.

AJ: I feel like it would have to be, I mean I'm assuming that the door was locked and they couldn't get in. Otherwise, if they're that concerned and the door's unlocked, you think they would just open the door and like peek in. Right? If they're really concerned that their friend is passed out in the room.

Katie: Yeah, that's true. Were all the doors locked for all of the dead people?

AJ: They haven't released those details. We just know that the door to whose ever bedroom they were concerned about, I think it was Xana. I think it was on the second floor, but whose ever room that was, they were concerned about the person inside being passed out. I'm assuming they would've had to have not been in the room because like I said, if they had been in the room and saw the room, I'm assuming it, you know, the, the police have said it's a very bloody crime scene, so they would've mentioned that in the 9 1 1 call, you'd think, that there's blood everywhere.

Katie: Yeah, that's what I was thinking when you were first talking about it. There's somebody passed out and I was like, well, if, why wouldn't they say anymore about it? Like there's blood everywhere. Like she's been stabbed. So yeah, it's probably likely they didn't see her.

AJ: Yeah. The police initially were responding to a call of an unconscious person, so going into there the police didn't even know what they were walking into. You know, the call wasn't, "oh, there's someone dead in their bedroom." It's, " she's unconscious," you know? Let alone four dead people.

Stephanie: But how did she know she was unconscious if she didn't go in to check?

AJ: Well, she doesn't know. She just said that she was concerned about her and she wasn't answering. You know, so she probably like maybe saw her the night before and knew she was really drunk and then the next morning is still sleeping at like eleven, eleven thirty. The call was at 11:58. So they're concerned she's not answering when they're knocking on the door, you know, they're probably thinking like, "oh, I hope she's okay." You know what I mean?

Katie: Yeah. If the door's locked, then it's like they know she's in there but not answering so there's a problem.

AJ: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So they were just concerned and then they called friends over cuz they were concerned. I guess that was their first thing to do, was to call some other friends over and then they called 9 1 1.

Stephanie: I would've tried to bust the door down to be honest, if I was that concerned about my friend. But I guess, I dunno, that's just me.

AJ: Well, I, I feel like 9 times outta 10, people, I don't know, I feel like people just don't want to cause a scene. I mean, you should know even though she is calling 9 1 1, but you know what I mean? I feel like for whatever reason she didn't, and also, I don't know these details, like I said, they're being very cagey about the details of the 9 1 1 call. I'm just thinking in my mind they have released that the call was for an unconscious person, so that leads me to believe that she didn't go on the call screaming, saying there's blood everywhere and she's murdered. You know what I mean? That wasn't the nature of the call when she called, so makes me think that she, obviously she was outside of the room. Like I said, the police have ruled out these two surviving roommates and the friends that were there at the scene when the police arrived as suspects. So they don't think any of them were involved in the killing. So autopsies of the bodies of the four victims were completed, but results have not yet been released. Like I said, it's only been two weeks, so, there's still things that are gonna be coming out that we don't know yet. All four victims were stabbed multiple times with what they're describing as a fixed blade knife. The weapon was never found, so they don't even have a murder weapon actually, that they found at all yet. Some of the victims had defensive wounds on their hand, suggesting that they did fight with their attacker in some way before being killed. There were no signs of sexual assault on any of the victims. It's unknown at this time, if it was just one attacker or multiple attackers who were there that night. Already things are very strange. If there's defensive wounds and obviously they're fighting with their attacker, how does nobody hear that? They're probably screaming. So it's very weird that no one else in the home would hear that if they're screaming a lot and fighting with their attacker. The two surviving roommates said that they, you know, were sleeping. They never heard anything at all. You know, when they woke up the next morning, there was nothing that they were suspicious about. Obviously they hadn't heard anything the night before. So just very strange circumstances right off the bat. Police were able to backtrack a little bit and give a little bit of information about what the four victims were doing the night before the murders or the night of the murders, just earlier in the night. All four victims were out at separate parties in town the night that the murders took place. So Xana Kernodle and her boyfriend, Ethan Chapin, they were both at an on-campus party at Sigma Chi Fraternity from 8:00 to 9:00 PM and reports say that they returned to the home just before 2:00 AM. I don't really know that five hour timeframe between 9:00 PM when they left the party and then 2:00 AM when they get home, I don't know where they were in that five hour timeframe, but they did get home just before 2:00. Madison Mogan and Kaylee Goncalves were out at another bar that night called The Corner Club, and then they can be seen on surveillance footage ordering food from a food truck at 1: 41 AM. CNN reports that the girls ordered about $10 worth of food and they waited about 10 minutes for the food to be prepared, and then they can be seen walking out of view of the camera shortly after that. Then they get a ride home and arrive back at the house at 1:56 AM. A neighbor's security camera actually captured the girls arriving home at this time, and that's how they know they arrived at 1:56 AM. The manager of the food truck, Joseph Woodall, says that the two girls were acting normal and did not seem to be in any danger at all, based on their demeanor. Based on this timeline, all the victims were back at the home by 1:56 AM which would've been about one to two hours before the murders occurred. Remember, police said that they believed they were murdered between 3:00 and 4:00 AM. The two surviving roommates were already back at the home by 1:00AM.

Katie: So did that security camera not catch some random person coming into their house?

AJ: As of now, no. They've never, there are no suspects and that's never been released, so if they have that, they're not putting that out there.

Katie: Okay. Hmm. So, okay.

AJ: Yeah, very weird. I'll explain a little bit later that maybe there's a reason for that based on some theories that are going around. But yeah, we just know that the security, the neighbors ring cam at their home captured the girls coming home at 1:56 AM. For the longest time the police were actually saying that it was 1:45 AM and then, you know, their families were adamant and they said, "no, it's 1: 56." I guess they had seen the footage, the ring cam footage, or they just knew it was 1:56 and the police were still saying 1: 45, which might not seem like a big deal, but you know, 11 minutes is a long, you know, timeframe when you're trying to count minutes and hours, that people are where they are. 11 minutes can be a big deal. So then the police did retract it and they did say, "yes, it's 1:56 AM" was the time. So two people from this timeline that I just mentioned have also been ruled out as suspects. One of the people that's been ruled out is a man that was seen in the surveillance footage of the food truck. He's wearing a hoodie and he can be seen hovering by the girls, watching them as they order their food. He can also be seen chatting with a different group of people who motion to him that the girls are walking off, you know, like he's talking and they're saying like, "oh, like you know they're leaving." Then when he sees that he walks off and then he walks behind them, but then he waves to the girls and then he walks away in a different direction. So it looked like he might have been watching them or looking suspicious. But police said they have ruled him out as a suspect. Also, the other person that they've ruled out is the person who gave the two girls a ride home. At first it was reported that it was an Uber ride, but then the record was corrected, and now they say that it was not an Uber. It was a private third party who drove them home. So we don't know exactly what that means or who that was, but that driver who would turn out to be one of the last people to see the girls alive has been ruled out by investigators as well.

Stephanie: I dunno if you mentioned it already, but besides the boyfriend that was staying over, was there anybody else that night in the house besides the roommates?

AJ: We don't know. Well, we know that there were six people in the home the time that the murderers were said to have happened. So the four victims and the two other roommates. They were the only ones who were said to be in the home at that time. Whether there was people in the home earlier in the night, we don't know that at all for sure. The police haven't released that information. Like again, the police always know more than they release, so they might know that, but that's not been out there.

Stephanie: I was just wondering, maybe they had friends over, like a gathering earlier in the evening and something went wrong or whatever, and some guy came back and well did it.

AJ: But all six of them were out at separate parties. So I don't think they had people over. I mean, there have been reports out there that say that this was a known party house, you know, it was a huge, three story, six bedroom home. It's a huge house. So, you know, they have a lot of parties there. So there were always a lot of people coming and going all the time, and people who were frequently at the house. But that night, you know, like I said, two of them were at the Sigma Chi fraternity party, two of them were at that other club, and then the other two roommates were home by 1:00 AM. It doesn't say where they were at, but they were home by 1:00. They were all out that night, so I don't think they had a party that night at the house.

Stephanie: Nobody else has boyfriends or girlfriends that they know of?

AJ: No. I mean they might, I don't know. But no one else that was there.

Stephanie: Okay. I was just curious cuz maybe it was somebody they knew, right?

AJ: Yeah. Like I said, there's still a lot we don't know, but maybe the police know a little bit more. I mean, they probably do. Something else that came up during the early investigation was that there is a series of phone calls that were made to Jack DuCoeur, I believe that's how you pronounce it. He was the ex-boyfriend of Kaylee Goncalves and between 2:26 AM and 2:52 AM Kaylee made seven calls to him. All the calls went unanswered. Then Madison Mogan, so that was the other roommate, also placed three unanswered calls to him as well. So Kaylee's family have stood by Jack and they say that the breakup between he and Kaylee was amicable and that the two remained really close friends. They say that Jack is like family to them and they do not consider him a suspect or anything at all. They also say, it's not unusual for Kaylee to call several times, like she would often do that with other family members as well. She would call and call and call until someone answered, even if it was not an emergency or if it was something not super serious. She was known to call multiple times, so they don't even think the fact that she called seven times at that time of night was suspicious. They don't really look too much into that. The police said that they are still looking into the phone calls as part of the investigation, but Jack himself has been ruled out as a suspect according to reports. So as you can tell, they're ruling a lot of people out, but they're still no suspects as of right now. They're just releasing a lot of information about who they don't think it is, but nothing about who they think it might be. And one other interesting thing that's perplexing me is, the news media and the police actually captured images of a red blood like substance on the outside of the home. It's like near the bottom by the concrete foundation, and the red substance is in a dripping motion. So it's like it has been dripping and gravity, you know, it's taking it along it's path. It looks like, you know, when water is dripping down, you know, the pattern it makes, so that's definitely what it's looking like, rather than, doesn't look like blood splatter or, you know, someone rubbed up against it and got blood there, like it looks like it's dripping from somewhere. Now the substance has not been confirmed that it's blood as of yet. You know, it still has to of course, be tested in a lab to confirm, but it is deemed a suspicious blood like substance. And if you look at the images that have been released of this substance, so there is a pipe that's right near there, so it could be something totally unrelated that's dripping from this pipe that has like a reddish brownish color, but if it is blood, this leads to many more questions. How did blood get on the outside of the home, near the concrete foundation at the bottom? It's very, very weird. Police have said that it was a very bloody crime scene, as you would expect, with a quadruple stabbing, but I just can't understand how the blood would get there and then leaked to the outside of the home. It's just very weird to me. And the substance is located on the back wall of the home, which would be closest in proximity to the bedroom that Xana and Ethan were sleeping in. So, very weird. I don't know. And in the picture, so if you look up the pictures of this, which I'm sure you probably all will now, but, so you can see there's like five lines, like dripping blood, and then so there's like two and two, and then the middle one starts halfway down from where the other ones are, so it's much shorter than the others. If you look directly above that line on this picture, you can see some blood on the pipe that's on the outside of the pipe. Well, I, I'm saying blood, but it, it's not confirmed to be blood, but you can see there's this red substance on the pipe as well that's maybe dripping from the pipe to the wall at that point, which is why that middle line starts a little bit further down, whereas the other ones are longer. I don't know. It's just very weird. Like I said, the police haven't confirmed that it's blood or anything. They say that it's suspicious, but it still has to be confirmed for sure.

Katie: What, what else would it be? If it looks and it has the same consistency as blood, what the hell else would be dripping down there? Like I can't, I can't think of one thing. Fucking ketchup! That'd be weird too.

AJ: Yeah, it's for sure a hundred percent, or I think it's more than likely blood, but if it is, I don't understand how it got there. Like I said, it's a dripping motion. It's not like blood splatter. It's not, you know, somebody had blood on them and rubbed up against the house. It's dripping. You can tell it's the dripping motion. So I don't know where it's dripping from. I don't know how bloody does the room have to be for the blood to be dripping to the outside? It's just very bizarre to me.

Katie: Maybe it was on the murder weapon, like the knife, a lot of blood and if they were running from the house, they still had the knife and it just flung off onto the house and now it was dripping down. That's what I'm picturing, but it seems...

Stephanie: Yeah that's what I was going to say. That's what I was gonna say too. Maybe it was from the knife.

AJ: But I mean, but it's just...

Katie: That seems, it seems too farfetched though, but I don't know.

AJ: It, it could be, but I just think it just looks like it's dripping from above somewhere. Like it just doesn't look, I don't know. I mean it very well could be, who knows, but like, just looks like it's dripping.

Katie: Is there a window above there? Could it have come from, maybe they tried to escape out the window or something? Blood dripped down, but then they got pulled back in. I don't know.

AJ: I mean, yeah, there is a window, like I said, it's below Xana's bedroom, I think, on the back wall, on the second floor. But it's near the foundation, on the concrete foundation near the bottom where the dirt is. So I just find it weird. If it was coming from the window then it wouldn't be anywhere else other than there. It's weird that it starts there, you know what I mean? Like, it's not dripping from the window and you can see it on the wall. The only place that it is is on the concrete foundation near the bottom.

Katie: Yeah, that is super weird. Yeah. Hmm.

AJ: Yeah. So it's just super weird.

Stephanie: Yeah, I found a picture of it.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. You see, look at the picture, right? So it looks like it's dripping for sure. It looks like a dripping motion. And you can tell the middle one that's dripping starts a little bit lower than the others. Right?

Stephanie: Yeah.

AJ: And if you look, I dunno if you can see it in the picture, how zoomed in it is for you. You can see a little bit of blood on the outside of the pipe.

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

AJ: Right above that middle line, so it's dripping from there, but there's nothing else anywhere else above that where there's blood. It just starts there. So I don't understand where it could be coming from. It's just very weird to me.

Stephanie: Yeah. I don't know , but the picture is weird. I see it now. It's a very odd spot for it to be.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. So it doesn't really make any sense at all. Like I said, the police haven't confirmed that it's blood for sure.

Stephanie: Well, what else? Well, to me when I'm looking at it, it looks literally like blood. I can see it. What else would that be? Most crime scenes when you see blood, that's what it looks like.

AJ: Yeah, I think it's very farfetched to think that it would be anything else but blood. I mean, what are the chances that it's something else that just happens to be there that's not related. So I think it definitely, to me it's probably blood, but like I said, it's just hasn't been confirmed by the police at this time. So bizarre to me how it even got there in the first place and how it's only there and it's dripping from somewhere above, but it's not anywhere else. It's just super weird. That's the one thing, or one of the things in this case that I can't understand.

Katie: Oh yeah. I'm looking at the picture now too, and it does look like it's seeping down from inside the house, and then coming down, which is super weird.

AJ: Yeah. You can see there's no blood anywhere else above that. Right? It just starts there. You can see the part where it starts.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

AJ: On the concrete.

Katie: Yeah.

AJ: It's near the bottom, right? That's the concrete foundation.

Katie: Yeah. It looks like it's coming from the material that the house is made out of dripping down onto the concrete. Yeah, it's super weird.

AJ: Yeah, super weird. So that's a big mystery for sure. I don't know what's gonna come of that, but I'm interested to learn more about what the fuck that is. So there's a man named Johnny Law, so he's a former crime scene investigator, and now he has his own YouTube channel and he actually has a really good video up right now. He, in this video he says he was able to obtain a detailed sketch of the home's layout from the property manager. So I guess he just reached out to the property manager and they gave him the sketch and it shows the layout of the inside of the house and police have said that the two surviving roommates were on the first floor of the home. Although a lot of stuff in this case, because it's so high profile, a lot of stuff is rumor speculation. So sometimes it's hard to understand what's actually been confirmed by police and what's just other information that's out there. But as far as I know, the police did say that the two surviving roommates were on the first floor of the house, which is the main floor. So if you look at the house from the front, there's the main door that most people would go into, and if you enter that door, you're on the first floor, the main floor. And so that's where the two surviving roommates were sleeping and two of the victims were on the second floor. So, and we believe that's Xana and Ethan, and they were in one room on the second floor. There's also, because like I said, there's five people who are living at the house, but there's six bedrooms. So one bedroom was vacant that we know of, but we don't really know for sure which room was vacant. And that the vacant room is kind of important because it might explain, depending on which room was vacant, why maybe nobody heard anything that was happening that night. So, yeah, so like I said, Xana and Ethan were believed to be on the second floor, and then it's speculated that the two other victims, Kaylee and Madison, were up in their separate bedrooms on the third floor. So, like I said, the vacant bedroom may be important because it is directly below either Madison's bedroom or directly below Xana and Ethan's bedroom. Because they said that the two surviving roommates were on the first floor, I am speculating that the vacant bedroom was on the second floor. So Xana and Ethan were on the second floor bedroom and directly below them was the other roommate's bedroom that survived. So people are saying that this is the only point where there may have been noise that's heard. That's the only point during this where there would be people directly above, because the speculation is that Xana and Ethan were killed first, and then the killer went up to the third floor. So you know, the two people on the second floor are dead already. So when he is up on the third floor, nobody's gonna really hear it. And then you're not gonna hear it from the third floor when you're on the first floor. So they say that that bedroom that Xana and Ethan were in was the one time where they may have been able to hear noise. If they're hearing footsteps or commotion happening in the room above them, but they believe that because Kaylee and Madison were on the third floor, there's not really anyone that would've heard anything that's happening in either of those bedrooms. So that's basically what he's getting at in this video where he's talking about the layout of the house and how could nobody hear anything? Or why would the other roommates not hear anything? And people were suspicious. But it would make sense if, you know, if you're sleeping, you're not necessarily gonna hear footsteps. If you're in like a deep sleep, you're not gonna hear footsteps above you if there's no screaming or anything. Which is also weird if there's no screaming and there's two of them. And if they're just defensive wounds on their hands, obviously they were fighting back. The details are just confusing to me.

Katie: Also, I feel like when I was younger that age, I could sleep through anything. I remember the fire alarm in the building was going off and I was still asleep and somebody actually had to come and shake me awake. And this is a normal night. Like I'm not like super drunk or anything, just asleep. Someone had to come and actually wake me up cuz there's a fire alarm blaring throughout the whole building. So, I mean, I don't, it, it's not farfetched for me to think that even if there was a little bit of commotion that people just slept straight through it.

AJ: Yeah, I think it is very possible. People aren't hearing things. You know, you're in a deep sleep, you're not gonna hear, especially like I said, if there's no screams or anything like that, even screams you might sleep through. But if it's just footsteps, and also even if you do hear footsteps, you're not gonna think it's weird because you know there are people in the bedroom above you. You know, if you're sleeping at night and you hear footsteps above you, it's not gonna be weird cuz you know, there's people in that room. So it's not even something that you would necessarily even be concerned about even if you heard the footsteps. From this video when he 's describing the layout of this house that's what he's getting at is trying to pinpoint which bedrooms were directly below and above the other ones to see if there was a potential to hear what's happening in these bedrooms?

Katie: It's weird that they bypass the first floor of bedrooms though, and they just didn't even bother. Is there theories out there that they had a vendetta against these four particular people, so that's why they skipped the two at the bottom, or they just didn't think there was bedrooms down there. Is there anything that came out about that.

AJ: In terms of that the police are also being a little bit cagey and they're not saying much so at first they said that they didn't believe that there was a risk to the wider community. They thought that it was just an isolated incident, so they told people not to worry. Then they walked it back and then they said, " well, we can't conclusively say that it was targeted or that it was isolated." so they told people to use caution, and then the reports are saying now that they believe that it was a targeted attack in some way. Either if it was one person that was targeted, or if all four of them were, I don't know why all four of them would be, but they don't really know that, or they've said they believe that it's targeted. But again, that's all they're saying. They're not saying anything else about that, like who it was or if it was more than one person. So they're being wishy-washy with some of the information that's coming out, which is a little bit confusing. But I mean they're, I mean, everyone's confused. So...

Stephanie: Did they ever consider maybe since they were all out that night that somebody had a beef with somebody while they were out and this person happened to follow them back to where they were and hid out for a little bit and then attack whoever they were wanting to attack.

AJ: Well, my understanding is that they are looking at surveillance footage from the Sigma Chi party that Xana and Ethan were at. Like I said, there is that five hour window so the report said that they were at the Sigma Chi fraternity party from 8:00 to 9:00, and then they get home around 2:00 AM. So we don't know where they were from 9:00 to 2:00, so that might be something, obviously that's probably something they're looking into as well. So we don't really know, but I'm assuming they're probably gonna be looking at, you know, the corner club where Madison and Kaylee were. They've already looked at the surveillance video from the food truck. That's how they got that initial person that they thought might have been a suspect, but was ruled out. So they are looking at surveillance footage, I would assume, from all those places, and they're asking for tips from anyone in the community, because that's obviously something they're gonna try to think too. Maybe there was something that happened that night. Maybe there was an incident, somebody got very angry and then followed them home or, or something like that.

Katie: Yeah. I was also thinking maybe somebody came back with one of them to party longer, so there was another person in the house with them. And then just when everybody fell asleep, you know, they unleashed their attack for some reason.

AJ: Yeah, and like we know, maybe that's possible. We don't know. I mean, we'll never really know. Maybe there was someone else in one of those bedrooms that we don't know about. The other two roommates were home by 1:00, but we don't know for sure that there wasn't another person at some point with the other four. We don't really know that yet, or maybe the police do, but I don't think that's really out there. I mean, they've never said that there was more than six people that were in the house. Like I said, they're being cagey and aren't saying too much about the specifics of that. From the video of the house layout that this video is shown, I'm thinking, so this is also a theory that that guy Johnny Law says, the former crime scene investigator, he's just throwing it out there, speculating about how he thinks the killer entered the home, and I also agree with him. Thinking that it's possible that the killer entered the home from the second floor patio, which is situated at the back of the house. It's on a gravelly sort of hill. So I mean, if you look at pictures of the house, you can see it, but the house is on a hill, so the main floor and the front of it is on ground level basically. But then as you go back further, the house, you're going uphill, so at the back there is a yard and there is a patio at the back that you can access from the third floor. You can walk out to the balcony. There's a balcony overhead, but there is a patio underneath the balcony. There is a sliding glass door that leads to the kitchen on the second floor, and it's assumed that this isn't a fenced off area, so anyone can just walk in from the back of the house onto this patio and potentially through the sliding glass door if it's not locked. So if they came in the sliding glass door, that would put them already on the second floor, would put them in the kitchen, then Xana's bedroom is the one that's right close to that. So that would be the closest bedroom. So I believe that, you know, Xana and Ethan were probably killed first, as they were the ones that were on the second floor. Then the killer made their way up the stairs and then killed Madison and Kaylee, who were in the other bedrooms on the third floor, and then came down and then went out the sliding glass door, the same way they came in. So it's entirely likely that the killer didn't even go onto the first floor. So if they were to enter through the main door at the front of the house, then he would've been on the main floor, and then the two surviving roommates would've been closest to them. The fact that those two survived leads me to believe that the killer was never on the first floor at all, but entered on the second floor, unless it was a targeted attack and the person knew which bedrooms these people slept in and just went directly for those bedrooms. Like that's also a possibility too.

Stephanie: That was gonna be my next question. I was gonna say maybe he would have known the layout of the house in order to know where to go and where those bedrooms were. If it was a direct attack. I don't know, like if you were just going in just to go in a house to kill people, your first instinct would go through the front door would it not? To me it sounds more like they knew the house and the arrangement of the house and where people were. So, yeah, I don't know.

AJ: I'm also thinking too, that, like Katie mentioned earlier, that the ring cameras from the neighbors never saw anyone going through, but maybe if they came from the back, that might be why there no footage of someone coming into the house because they came in from the back way where there might not be camera access. Maybe the person knew that, or was thinking of that and wanted to come in through that back door so that they wouldn't be spotted.

Katie: Yeah, that's what makes me think if you're trying to sneak into a house and not be noticed, you probably would go through the back because there's no direct houses facing that back door, right? It's like if you go through the front door, there's people across the street and everything but the back door, there's nobody really looking directly at the doors from other houses. You know what I mean? So that makes sense.

AJ: Yeah. And that's what I think is probably what happened is that they probably came in through that back door and like I said, there was no sign of forced entry, so I believe possibly that door was just left unlocked, that patio door, so the person was able to get in quite easily. And like Steph said, if it was someone who's been at the house before and knew the layout of the house and was targeting specific people, then he knew which rooms were vacant, which rooms people were sleeping in and just killed. But I, I just feel like if you're, I don't know, I feel like in my mind, like if someone's gonna be, have the gall to do that, it's like, why would they want, if they know there's other people in the home, why would they wanna leave two other people alive who could potentially have heard something ,who could have, you know what I mean? Like that's leaving more sort of possibility that people might hear you or, or know something. Right? Like if you're leaving them, them alive. Which makes me think that maybe they didn't think there was other people in the house.

Katie: Yeah. Maybe because bedrooms typically aren't on the bottom floor. When you think of a normal house layout the bedrooms are on the top floors, so maybe they just were thinking there was no bedrooms down there. So that's a possibility too.

AJ: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's just weird. I think that the person probably came through that sliding glass door on the second floor and then didn't even go on the first floor at all, and I was wondering too, maybe was the knife found in the kitchen? Did the person come to the scene with the knife or did they enter there and then see the knife, take it and kill them? They never released, like I said, they just said it was a fixed blade knife that was never found at the scene. They've never recovered the murder weapon, but they know it was a fixed blade knife.

Katie: Was there a knife missing from the house that they know of?

AJ: They've also never said that, so I'm assuming probably the person brought it with them to the house. Cuz I feel like that would be probably something that the police would announce. Right? Would say like, "oh, there was a knife missing." Right? Again, who knows what the police know, but they've never come out and said there was a knife missing from the house. So they just said that they never found the murder weapon and they believe that it was a fixed blade knife, whatever that means. So something else that also has come out in the two weeks since the murders happened. So there were tips that came in that suggested that Kaylee had a stalker. But the police have not been able to corroborate or substantiate that claim at all. So basically there's no evidence at this time that suggests that this claim is true. And Kaylee's family was interviewed on C N N, and they have said that she never mentioned anything like this to them. They say that she was a very open person and wasn't really private at all, so they think that if she knew she had a stalker, that's something she would've told them. But I'm thinking maybe it was someone told someone else that they were stalking Kaylee and Kaylee didn't know about it. So that's a possibility too. She can't tell people something she doesn't know. Right? So maybe someone was bragging like, "oh, I've been stalking Kaylee." You know what I mean? Someone said something to suggest that and was stalking Kaylee even if she herself didn't know about it. But the police haven't been able to find any evidence to back this claim up. It's been like lingering out there that maybe she had a stalker, which would go with a targeted theory. But if they were targeting just Kaylee, like why would they kill all of the other three people? It's just very bizarre. Like I said, there are still no suspects at this time. Global News reports that, "police have seized the contents of three dumpsters on King Road to locate possible evidence." King Road is the, obviously the road where the house is located and there was three dumpsters near the home, and police have seized all the contents of these dumpsters. They've also been contacting nearby businesses to see if there was a knife that matched the kind that they believe was used in the killings that may have been purchased recently. Police have said that they've combed through over 1000 tips that have come in and they've conducted at least 150 interviews so far and have seized over 100 pieces of evidence from the home itself so far in the investigation, but all the information I've told you is all that they know so far. So they have no suspects in mind, or at least none that they've released publicly. So one of the problems with a case that becomes so widespread and public knowledge is that there are a lot of rumors that come out and other speculation that the police haven't confirmed, but it's just out there. So there were some other events that were rumored to have possibly been connected to the quadruple murder. On August 13th, 2021, so this would've been over a year ago in Silverton, Oregon, there was a couple who were the target of a violent break-in and stabbing in their home. 26 year old Travis Juetten and his wife, 24 year old Jamilyn, they were both stabbed multiple times around 3:00 AM when a mask assailant entered their bedroom and began violently attacking them. Travis died of his injuries, but Jamilyn miraculously survived. The attacker was never found and no suspects have ever been reported in that case. So because many of the details were so similar, and this happened just 400 miles away from Moscow, Idaho, people began speculating that the two murders were somehow connected. Police have said that they don't believe there's a connection between the two murders at this time. They also believed that, like I said before, the quadruple murder was targeted but haven't given much other details. Then in another incident there was rumors that there was a dog in the same town that was found skinned three weeks prior to the murders, and people were thinking that maybe that was the work of someone who was the killer. And I have no idea why people would assume that there was this connection. Maybe because there was reports that Kaylee's dog was found in the home, but the dog was unharmed and was handed over to animal services. So that, I think that's where that connection came in. But police have said that there is no connection between the two incidents either. So at this time, they don't believe that this skinned dog that they found three weeks before has anything to do with it. I think people are just grasping on anything they can. Like I said, there's not a lot of concrete answers at all about what happened, and so we still don't know anything, and that's where the investigation is now. Over the last few days, there hasn't been any news really. There's updates, but nothing that we didn't know before. So police are working around the clock and the house is still cordoned off. It's a crime scene area. And so they're still working to find suspects, find more information, and like I said, they have over a thousand tips that came in from people that they're still combing through, so who knows what they'll find. It's just very, very bizarre and I feel like it's everyone's worst nightmare. Having someone come into your home and if you wake up and there's a masked person standing over your bed, that's terrifying. Gives me nightmares to even think about it. So it's just very bizarre. And they also still don't know if it's just one killer or multiple. I was thinking maybe it's more than one person because ,especially for Xana and Ethan, if they have defensive wounds on their hands, how is one person fighting off an attack when the other person isn't waking up, isn't screaming, isn't doing anything like that. You know what I mean? Which speaks me think maybe there was two people. I don't know. They've also, police still don't know at this time if it's one or two. And there's a lot of talk too about, there's a lot of possibly digital evidence too. There were suggestions that police should be looking into maybe somebody connected to the wifi while they were in the home. If they had been at the home before, then their phone automatically connected to the wifi. So there's suggestions that they should probably look through the wifi history, see who was connected to the wifi between those hours. Or if they were connected to a hotspot on their phone and didn't know. So there's things like that that they can look into to see. But they haven't released anything that came from that, if they even did that. So there's still a lot, we don't know. It was very sketchy, very suspicious, and ultimately very sad for these four university students. You know, Ethan was a freshman, I believe. Two of them were in their last year, gonna graduate. So, you know, all that potential is very, very sad and I'm hoping that they can finally find who did it and, you know, bring justice to the family and these victims because, you know, it's four people, four young people. It's just very sad.

Katie: It's super scary. Imagine being the two that survived. How vulnerable they must feel cuz they were there asleep when all this happened and it very easily could have happened to them as well. So I can't imagine how they're feeling. That's super scary. Also, the fact that it was a party house. There was always people coming and going. Just try to find fingerprints of a random person is gonna be hard cuz there's probably lots of fingerprints from people with a lot of people coming in and out. That's probably not helpful for them at all. So yeah, I wonder if they think there's more than one person, I wonder if there's more than one weapon that was used. Could they tell if there was two separate knives, two different knives that were used doing the stabbings or do they think that one of them was holding them down while the other one was doing it? I wonder what kind of information that is gonna come out?

AJ: Yeah, and I think that might come from the autopsy, cuz like I said, they did do autopsies, but they haven't released the details of the autopsies yet. So that might be something that will come out with that. But I think, I mean, for the other two, like Kaylee and Madison, they were in their own rooms, in their own beds, so one person could obviously do that. But I'm just thinking for Xana and Ethan, there's two people in that room. That's where you're gonna run into trouble if one of them is screaming and fighting off. Also the police were saying or experts are saying, you know, that if there was a fight, if they had defensive wounds on their hands, there is a possibility that maybe the killer got cut with the knife as well during the fight, which could leave blood evidence mixed in with the blood that's at the crime scene as well. So that's a possibility that they could find that too if there's an unknown blood profile from someone that's mixed in with the blood, that that could be a lead for them. I couldn't even imagine being the other two surviving roommates. I don't know how you would ever sleep again. I can barely sleep . I think about it when I'm home alone right now, but I couldn't imagine being the other two that, like you said, survived and knowing it could have been them. Just sad and scary.

Stephanie: Yeah. I still can't get over that blood stain that they saw outside. But also this is the reason why I lock my doors at night when I'm by myself and I sleep with the light on because stuff like this terrifies me.

Katie: Or not by yourself? Lock the doors anyway. Like obviously.

Stephanie: Well, yeah, I lock my doors anyways. Yeah.

Katie: Six people in this house and they still got murdered.

Stephanie: Yeah, like AJ said, I just don't understand how nobody else heard, unless it was like a really old house and there was stone in the wall and it's very soundproof.

AJ: Well that's a good, that's a good point, Steph, that you mentioned, cuz that's something else that came up too, was that because there was talk about like," well, how insulated are the walls? Or how soundproof is it?" And there was residents who lived in the house 25 years ago who lived in part of it, who were talking about the house. But the addition, if you look at the house, it's a weird shape. So the back part of it was a new addition that just happened recently, but the main part, on the main floor and stuff was there for at least 25 years ago. I don't really know if that will answer anything about insulation or soundproofing, but it is at least 25 years old, that part of the house and then the other stuff was added on after. I don't know what that would mean for soundproofing, but just also an interesting thing because that was something that came up in some of the videos I've seen as well as people were talking about how insulated were these walls where no one's hearing anything. But like I said too, if you're just hearing footprints, you're not gonna think anything you know, cuz you know there's people in the bedroom above you. If the one roommate on the first floor, even if she does wake up and hears footprints or something, she's not gonna think like, "oh that's weird." She knows there's other people upstairs. So unless she's hearing screaming or something, you're not really gonna be necessarily concerned. I wouldn't think.

Katie: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean, there's five other people in the house, so hearing someone walking around isn't gonna be super weird. So Yeah, it's interesting.

AJ: Yeah, it's a super sketchy, super scary, and like I said, we're recording this episode on Sunday, the 27th, which is just two weeks after the murders and this episode's gonna be coming out on the 30th of November, so there might even be some updates within this three day period that we might have to add in, in post-production. But yeah, we'll see. Of course there'll be updates as things come up. I mean I'm really hoping it gets solved. The one that happened in that town 400 miles away was over a year ago, and they still haven't found who did that one. So I'm really hoping this isn't a case of that where they just can't find a suspect. And also too, you know, and as it's getting further and further away, I doubt the person's gonna stay in town. They're probably gonna flee. Right? So who knows where they could be now if they're gonna flee the town. I mean, I wouldn't think that you would stick around, but also there have been cases too where people go to the memorials for the victims after they do it. So it's not out of the realm of possibility they do that, but I would just think that you would flee.

Katie: Maybe, but if it is another university student maybe leaving would look suspicious. Or maybe, I guess because if you're scared you could just say, "I'm leaving, getting the hell outta here." But yeah.

AJ: Well a lot of students have done that, apparently.

Katie: Have left?

AJ: Yeah. A lot of students have left campus and went home and they won't return until they find the killer.

Katie: Yeah. I guess that makes sense. So I mean it could be one of them.

AJ: Yeah true. So, and that's the thing. We never really know cause like I said, the police always have more information than they release, so I don't necessarily believe them when they say they don't know. I mean, they might have a person of interest in mind. They're just not saying it. Because if you really do think it's this person, you're not gonna put that out there, giving that person more of an opportunity to flee, right? I mean, it makes sense that you would keep that close to the vest for now until you have enough evidence for sure.

Katie: Yeah, and it has only been two weeks, so I mean, it is super early still in the investigation, so I feel like there's still a lot more that's gonna come out in the recent days even, and weeks to come. So definitely have to stay up to date on this one.

AJ: Yeah. And that was also too another point that I, at risk of sounding a little bit harsh here, but I feel like in some of the interviews I've seen of the family members, I mean, I think some of them are being a little bit unrealistic because they're very angry with the police that the investigation is still ongoing. They haven't found the person or that they haven't been telling the family things. It's like the police aren't gonna tell the family information if it's top secret investigative information, they're not gonna tell the families. Once you tell one person, you have told the world basically. So they have to understand that the police have to keep things, I'm not saying that they did everything perfectly, I mean, I don't know the specific situation. I'm sure the family, I mean right now they're still mourning, right? It's only been two weeks. But in just in some of their interviews, they're saying how angry they are at the police and stuff, and it's like, well, it's only been two weeks. You have to give them a chance to investigate.

Katie: Yeah. And they can't just be saying names that they think might be suspicious. I mean, that's how you can ruin an innocent person's life by saying their name when they actually had nothing to do with it. So it does make sense that they're, you know, keeping things close, but interested to see where this goes.

AJ: Yeah. And we'll for sure keep you guys updated with updates as they come. Like I said, I'm sure it's gonna be lots of updates, so make sure you follow us on social medias to get all of that information. We'll probably put out an update episode as things come along, but I just wanted to discuss this one because like I said, I've been, ever since it happened two weeks ago, I've been following it and I feel like I needed to talk it through with someone and get my thoughts out there cuz it is puzzling me right now, some of the details of it, especially that blood stain on the outside, like to me that's just bizarre. So I'm interested to see how it goes and I hope they do find the perpetrator for justice for the victims and also so that they can't do anything like this again. Also, there's a lot of experts out there saying that they, cuz there was a lot of talk, like, "is it a serial killer?" Experts would come out and said they don't believe that a person's gonna do four killings their first time killing. They think that it might be someone with a history of killing. But again, that's speculation. No one knows if it's targeted. You don't have to have a history, right? You're just angry and you wanna do something and maybe had something against all four people. I don't know. So we'll update you as things come out and, like I said, hoping it's solved soon.

So that does it for this episode of Crime Family. So like I said, follow us on the social medias if you wanna hear updates of this case and just get some, you know, keep up to date with what we're doing. You can follow us on Instagram @crimefamilypodcast, we're on Twitter @crimefamilypod1, and our Facebook is Crime Family Podcast. You can also send us case suggestions and you know, your thoughts on the podcast, things you like, things you don't like. All your feedback to our email at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com, and check out our website@crimefamilypodcast.ca. You can also, if you love the show and you wanna be a patron, definitely join us on Patreon at patreon.com/crime family podcast. Join us at one of the three tier levels to get exclusive benefits that only patrons get, including mini episodes and bonus episodes, and a new series Doc Talk, like I mentioned at the beginning. Definitely check that out and we also have a merch store open on Red Bubble as well. Check out the link in the show notes to find our merch and support the show. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week with a brand new case. So take care. Bye

Stephanie: Bye.

Katie: Bye.