S04E05: THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THEO HAYEZ

AJ: Coming up on this episode of Crime Family.

The disappearance of Theo Hayez, an 18 year old man from Belgium who went missing without a trace while backpacking in Australia back in 2019.

After standing outside the bar for a bit, Theo can be seen walking away, and this CCTV footage is the last known sighting of him.

Stephanie: I just don't know why he would climb up an embankment in the middle of the night. The only reason why I could think of is that he was trying to get away from somebody and trying to climb up to get away from something. That just seems really odd to me. I don't know.

Katie: To me it feels like he maybe was with someone and there was a party at the beach or he was meeting someone to get something.

But it is hard to say whether that person killed him or whether an accident happened and he did fall into the water. If it was an accident, why wouldn't anyone report it?

AJ: Hi everyone. Welcome back to Crime Family. Before we start today's episode, we just want to let you know about our patron community. If you like the show and you want exclusive extras, like ad free content, bonus episodes, a private community to connect with us, free merch and an exclusive new true crime series Doc Talk consider becoming a Patron. Doc talk is like a book club for true crime documentaries. Each month, we'll select a new doc to watch and discuss it in full. We'll take your questions and discuss the topics you want. You have access to this exclusive new series at a tier three membership, as well as all the other extras I mentioned. Join us on Patreon to continue the true crime conversation and build a community. We'd love to have you. By signing up today, you'll also get automatic access to our bonus episodes, including one about Sarah Boone, known as the Suitcase Killer, one about the updates in the Adnan Syed case, and a Halloween one. So check out the show notes for the link to become a patron today, or go to patreon.com/crime family podcast. Also, we've recently launched our exclusive merch store on Red Bubble. We're so excited to have the official Crime Family logo and designs on everything from t-shirts, to stickers to mugs and hats. Check out our merch store to help support the show at the link in the show notes.

 On this week's episode, I'm going to be telling you about the disappearance of Theo Hayez, an 18 year old man from Belgium who went missing without a trace while backpacking in Australia back in 2019. There are a number of theories out there about what could have happened, but very little has been confirmed in this case.

This is the story about a young man traveling solo in an unknown land whose family is now seeking answers to find out what really happened the night he disappeared. Theo Hayez was an 18 year old from Brussels, Belgium, who left his home in late 2018 for a months long backpacking trip to Australia. Theo was described as, "A clever, gentle, and thoughtful young man with a bright future." He had spent the months leading up to his disappearance solo traveling all around the continent of Australia. His trip was open-ended, so he left home, but he didn't really have any real return date scheduled, so he just planned to stay as long as he desired, just so he could find adventure in a country that was so different from his own. However, even though he didn't have a return date planned, he did always promise his family that he would eventually come home, even if he didn't know exactly when. He also promised his mother that although he was going to find adventure and he was an adventurous person, he would be careful and take calculated risks. So he wouldn't do anything too wild like jumping off of cliffs or anything like that. For a boy who loved nature, the backpacking trip to Australia was everything he could have wanted. He started out in Victoria with his godfather, John-Philippe Pector. He goes by JP, so I'll just call him JP for the remainder of the episode. He spent the first few weeks of his trip in Victoria with JP, who was his godfather, and JP's wife, Julia Malcolm. Theo spent the following months after this traveling all around the continent, which based on a video diary of his, he absolutely loved. He was, you know, in the video he was describing the beauty of Australia and all of the things that he had done and just seemed to be really in love with his trip and with the culture of Australia. As it turns out, his trip was finally coming to an end and he finally planned to leave Australia and return home in early June of 2019. That would've put his trip at about six or seven months, which is quite a long time to be backpacking by yourself. The first week of June is when he was going to go home, but that was going to be after a few days in Byron Bay. Byron Bay is just a beachside town located on the eastern tip of Australia. Theo arrived in Byron Bay on May 29th, 2019, and stayed at the Wake Up Hostel during his time there. Five days after his arrival in Byron Bay, Theo's mother Vinciane contacted Theo's godfather, JP in Victoria, asking him if he had heard from Theo, because she had not really heard anything since Theo arrived in Byron Bay. She thought maybe he just didn't have a lot of internet connection or phone service or something. JP knew that something wasn't quite right when he then discovered that Theo never checked out of the Wake Up Hostel and that he missed a bus that he had booked to Sydney. I guess the plan was that he was going to take this bus to Sydney and then fly home from Sydney. Even though he had bought a ticket for this bus trip, he never ended up boarding the bus. Upon a search of his room at the hostel, all of his personal belongings were there, including his passport, and so immediately a search begins to determine the whereabouts of Theo Hayez after his godfather reports him missing to Australian police on June 6th. Soon into the investigation, it's discovered that the final sighting of Theo was actually a week earlier, outside of a bar around 11:00 PM on the night of May 31st, which would've been just two days after he arrived in Byron Bay. May 31st was a Friday night, and Theo was out with just some other backpackers that he met at the hostel at a bar called Cheeky Monkeys. He arrived at the bar at 9:35 PM and CCTV footage from inside shows him laughing, dancing, having fun and then just after 11:00 PM he's asked to leave by the bouncers due to him being, "approaching intoxication." Theo had only had two beers at the bar and wasn't even drinking in the last hour that he was inside. The CCTV footage that is shown in an episode of 60 Minutes Australia, shows no signs of intoxication outside of the bar, really at all. I mean, he's walking normally and just by looking at that footage, he doesn't really appear drunk, like the typical image of someone who's, you know, falling around or stumbling or something. He's not doing that. He's walking normally. There's no audio, so it's just a video. I guess some people can hide their level of intoxication better. Some people can seem somewhat sober even though they've had quite a bit to drink. I guess we can't really go just on that CCTV footage. Even though he looks normal in the CCTV footage, he was still asked to leave by the bouncers because he was becoming inebriated. Reports also say that he was banned from all other bars in the area that night, which seems drastic. It's really weird for the bouncers to say he was approaching intoxication, which is why they kicked him out. Isn't everyone in the bar approaching intoxication? That's a really weird observation or comment. I just find it weird that they would single him out and kick him out of the bar because he was approaching intoxication when you could probably make that case for literally everyone inside and for whatever reason, I mean, he was being banned from all of the other bars on that strip that night. For whatever reason, maybe he's way drunker than he's appearing in this footage, and after standing outside the bar for a bit, Theo can be seen walking away. This CCTV footage is the last known sighting of him. Once he leaves the view of this camera, there's no other sighting of him on any other cameras. However, his trail doesn't go completely cold after he leaves the view of the camera, because the GPS tracker on his phone is actually showing his entire journey after leaving the bar that night. It was actually Theo's mother who initially got access to his Google account. She remembered his passwords and was able to get in, and she unlocked all of the GPS tracking information that is used in the investigation. By the time she unlocked his passwords and his accounts, it was already June 16th, which was 10 days after he was reported missing, and 17 days since he was last seen. The reason that Theo's mother was the one who initially gained access to his phone was because the Australian authorities were unable to get this information due to intense privacy laws that prevented them from gaining a timely warrant to help with the investigation. Belgian laws allow for access to social media accounts almost immediately, which is much different than in Australia. This allowed the Belgian authorities to move much quicker than Australian authorities ever could in the case. Because his mother was back in Belgium, she was able to just get into his phone. She knew his passwords. She was the one who unlocked the biggest pieces of evidence in this case, which is this GPS tracking data. So, 60 Minutes Australia outlines a detailed timeline of Theo's movements based on the GPS data found on his phone, and this trail proves to be pretty puzzling. Once GPS tracking is turned on, Theo can be seen, he's walking in the opposite direction of the hostel after leaving the bar and that CCTV footage and just six minutes after that, he opens Google maps and searches for directions to his hostel, and he opens the map a total of eight times after that. He's checking the maps in and out, just making sure he is going in the right direction. You might just think that, you know, he's maybe confused and he walked in the wrong direction and got lost. He is walking in the opposite direction in that CCTV footage. The easiest route is to head the other way, which would've made it much quicker for him to get back to his hostel. Police detectives and Theo's godfather, JP, they believe that Theo knew exactly the direction he was walking in because they speculate that he took an alternate route to get back to the hostel. This alternate route would take him down to the beaches of Byron Bay and then back to his hostel along the beach. It's a much more scenic route. It is possible that he wanted to just walk along the beach to go back to his hostel and was walking in that direction. They think that he wasn't necessarily lost, but that he knew exactly where he was going and based on, you know, Google Maps, maybe it showed that route or some part of that route, so he's walking that way. One notable stop that Theo makes along the way is at the Cricket Nets, and this is supposedly in a sketchy part of town, which is close to some homeless tent cities. They call it the Cricket Nets in the 60 Minutes Australia. In the dramatization, it looks like a soccer field so maybe it is literally cricket nets for the game cricket, but it's known in Byron Bay as a sketchy area. GPS data shows that Theo stops at the Cricket Nets for almost seven minutes before continuing on his way. Before that, the GPS from his phone is actually able to show so much detail in terms of the pace that he's walking. It even shows that he's walking at a constant pace. He's not stopping a lot, and the Cricket Nets is the first time along his route that he actually stops for a significant amount of time. It shows also too, the GPS tracking, that he's walking in more or less a straight line, which isn't really the actions of someone who's wandering as if they're lost. Doesn't seem like he's meandering. He seems like he's walking in a direct route, like he knows where he's going. So it would make sense if he is following Google Maps route. Investigators believe that Theo was stopped and talked to some people at the Cricket Nets, and that would be the only reason that he would make a stop there for that amount of time because the phone data shows that he didn't use his phone at all during the seven minute period. He wouldn't just be standing there staring, you know, into the sky or something. Right? He could be, I guess, but that isn't really a theory that is widely believed. The speculation is that he met a group of people there, or was talking to a group of people there because that would make sense as to why he was there for seven minutes. Some speculation was that he met a group of people there, started talking to them, maybe he bought drugs or alcohol off of them or something. There's nothing really to support this theory other than just mere speculation. A map of the area shows that the beaches were a straight shot from the Cricket Nets, so he would've just had to continue walking for, you know, a few more minutes in this direction that he was walking. After his seven minute stop at the Nets, he inexplicably starts going in a different direction, which investigators believe is because he met someone there at the Nets who convinced him to wander off his planned route. JP says that after the stop of the Cricket Nets, they notice that his pace picks up just a little bit. Not a running pace, but just walking maybe a little faster than he was before at a more consistently quicker pace. This quick pace is the pace that he's walking at when he veers off in the opposite direction from his hostel, towards Tallow Beach. Tallow Beach puts Theo about five kilometers from his hostel. That would be putting him further away from it. It is a bit odd. I mean, when they show the map in the 60 Minutes Australia episode and you can see the beach that they speculate he might have been walking to in order to head back to his hostel was a straight line from there. It is weird that all of a sudden he would turn and go in the opposite direction. What do you guys think of that theory? Do you agree that maybe he did meet up with a group of people and was talking to them? How would you explain that seven minute interval?

Katie: For me, thinking about it, I don't think it's too far off to think that maybe he was lost. Thinking even myself, on a good day, completely sober, trying to find my way around a city. I'm back and forth on the same street multiple times, looking at Google Maps, you know, circling around even though I've been there before, I just can't find my way around. That's just me personally, I'm just really bad with direction, so I would feel like if he is just wandering, he's not sure where he is going. That seems logical. He could have stopped, someone could have approached him, especially in that sketchy area, you know, maybe asking him for money or asking him for directions or something, so him stopping and talking to somebody isn't totally crazy, right? I can think of times myself when people have stopped me asking me for money, just walking down the street in broad daylight. It doesn't seem like anything sketchy is happening here at all.

Stephanie: I have to agree with Katie. I don't think anything sketchy is going on. I think, it was dark out and he might not have known exactly where he was. He just got turned around and maybe went the wrong way. I don't think he was in any danger. I think he was just lost and maybe he had a little bit too much to drink, not a lot, but maybe he just got disoriented and couldn't find his way around. I don't think there's anything suspicious going on at all.

AJ: I just think he was walking in the right direction the whole time, so it's weird that he would suddenly veer off in an opposite direction. All he had to do was keep walking straight and if he were to look on the Google maps, he would see that. It's weird that he would then go off in a completely different direction. You know what I mean? To me that was weird because it was so far off of the way that he was walking the whole entire time leading up to this.

Katie: Yeah, I guess it does make sense if all he had to do was go straight and the map showed that, but then he doesn't do that. There has to be a reason, I guess.

AJ: Yeah, I guess it's hard if you're not seeing the map, but they show the map on the 60 Minutes Australia episode. They put an X to where the Cricket Nets are , where he would be, and then if you look on the map, it's literally just a straight line, either north or south. I don't know the direction of the map, but pretty much a straight line, either south or north, but he starts heading east after that.

Katie: But do they know that's what the map was showing him was to go straight? I mean, I've had Google Maps and they take me on this back road meandering to get somewhere where I could have just taken the straight shot on the highway. Do we know what the map was showing him? Or we just know that that was the logical route.

AJ: I guess they just are saying that that's the logical route. I mean, I do agree that, yeah, Google Maps does take you on these weird roundabout routes, so maybe for whatever reason, maybe there was construction or something on one street that Google Maps went off and showed him to go another way. I'll go into it a bit further, but it's weird. He eventually ends up far from where the hostel would be. I can't see a way in which Google Maps would be directing him that way, especially the way he went.

Katie: Also, it could be possible, I've done this before, where you put in a destination that isn't actually where you want to go, but you know that where you want to go is in that vicinity. You know if you're thinking of a street or maybe a restaurant or a bar, but you don't remember the name, but you're like, "Oh,, it's by this place." So you put that in instead, and so you go in that direction but that's not actually where you're intending to go. That could have been what happened as well. The hostel was close to another bar that he wanted to go to, so he put the hostel in instead.

AJ: Mm-hmm. . Well, yeah, he put the hostel in Google Maps. He put the hostel in. He was trying to find his way to.

Katie: Yeah, but what I'm saying is maybe there was a bar close to the hostel that he wanted to go to, but didn't know the name of the bar, so he put the hostel in, so he'd get the right direction. You know what I mean?

AJ: Yeah, that's true, but then he still goes off in the opposite direction from even that, which is weird.

Katie: Okay. Yeah, I guess it is weird. .

AJ: Something else that is strange too, is that he doesn't ever put Tallow Beach into Google Maps, and Tallow Beach is eventually where he ends up going and it's this convoluted route. He doesn't put Tallow Beach into Google Maps, and yet he takes a very different path than one would normally take to Tallow Beach. In other words, it's not a way that you would be walking there unless you are local and know that route because it includes suburban roads and an inconspicuous access trail that's hidden between houses without any clear signage. It's like a secret entrance. It's not even the main entrance to Tallow Beach. It's this alternate trail that also leads you there, but it's not really clearly marked with many signs. It's near a national park, but not directly. It's also at nighttime, so it's extremely unlikely that a lone tourist is just going to walk along this route at night or much less even find it. This I think is the basis for the theory that Theo was with at least one other person at this time, most likely a local who knows this route because the speed at which he's walking it's not really feasible for someone who's alone and doesn't know the area. He's walking in this dark trail with thick brush and it's not a main route that you would ever just come across. This specific route that he takes to Tallow Beach is so obscure that it doesn't even show up on Google Maps at all if you were to search for it. So odd. It was actually search volunteers who, you know, shortly into the investigation actually found Theo's ball cap on the ground along this route during their own search of the area. That was the only thing of his that was ever found or recovered along this trail in a wooded area of some sort. Based on the GPS data, in this 60 Minutes Australia, they are talking to his family, interviewing his godfather and his godfather's wife, and his mother and everything, and they don't really believe that he was, you know, severely under the influence of drugs or alcohol at this time other than the two drinks that he had a few hours earlier. They don't think that he was severely intoxicated because the route that he's taking along this unmarked path was very precise and constant. He's keeping a constant pace. It's not like he's stopping to get sick or he's confused and getting his bearings. It wasn't like he was meandering at all. It's like he was walking as if he knew exactly where he was going, which indicates that he may have been following someone who was leading him there or at least that's the theory.

Katie: Yeah. It makes me think now that, yeah, when he stopped at the Cricket Nets, someone approached him or he approached somebody maybe asking to buy drugs or if somebody came up to him like, "Do you want to buy some drugs?" Then he's following this person to get that. That's what it seems like.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. I think that is what investigators were thinking, or police were thinking because it is a very obscure path and not one that you're ever going to really find on your own. It's also unlikely that you would just come across it because A, it is completely off from where he was heading in the first place, and B, it's just so out of view really. You have to know where you're going. One thing also that makes me think that he was following someone who was walking at a fast pace is when his hat got knocked off he didn't want to stop and try to find it because he didn't want to lose the person that you're supposed to be following. Right? So they think that that's why he left his hat. Who knows? Finally reaching Tallow Beach, he walks up the beach until he gets to a place known as Cozy Corner. This is close to where there's a famous lighthouse that's perched on these rocks. It's a really popular place for tourists. Locals go there as well. Once at the base of the rocks where the lighthouse is perched, the GPS data shows him veering off into a clearing that's in the bush behind the rocks where this lighthouse is. This clearing is a place that locals know is great for beach parties. This could be a hint as to what Theo was looking for. Maybe he met these locals at the Cricket Nets and followed them to this beach party that they were going to. There is always bonfires in this area. After he goes to this clearing, he returns to the beach after a few minutes and then switches off his GPS tracking. 60 Minutes Australia says that maybe he did that to save battery. We don't really know why he switches it off, but he does. Then he proceeds to respond to messages from friends and family that he hadn't answered for a few hours. Nothing in these text messages indicates that Theo was panicked, nervous, or suspected that he was in any danger at all. His responses are normal and consistent with the way that he always texted, and it is indicating that it was very likely him responding to these messages because that was also another thing I was thinking when I was first watching this. I'm like, "Well, how do they know that he's the one with the phone?" Maybe he dropped his phone and then someone else has his phone and is taking it along this route, but the one thing that kiboshed that theory was that he was responding to messages at this time when he is at the beach. GPS tracking has him at this beach. That's the same time that he's answering these texts in a very normal way.

Stephanie: I was just going to say, " Could it be somebody who got a hold of his phone?"

AJ: The first half of the episode I was watching, I was like," How do they know that it's actually him who has his phone this whole time?" That obviously makes it clear that it was.

Katie: Also why would some random person be like, "Oh, I'm going to answer all these text messages randomly out of the blue. We've seen this before. You can tell when the person isn't the person that it should be answering the texts, right? People have a certain way of texting.

AJ: Yeah, and it's confirmed or they suspect that it actually was him who was answering the messages because the way that he was texting was very normal. Nothing seemed off. Then also too his phone data shows that he goes onto YouTube and watches clips from one of his favorite comedy series back in Belgium which also proves that it was probably him as well because a random person who stole his phone isn't going to happen to look up the same show that he's also a really big fan of and watch random clips of it. As noted by investigators this kind of activity on his phone is indicative of someone who's not really in any danger at all or doesn't perceive themselves to be in any danger at least. It's also indicative of someone who maybe is killing some time while waiting for something. If he was at a party, if he was socializing, he wouldn't be watching YouTube clips of his favorite show randomly. Maybe he was waiting for someone or something and was just watching YouTube and answering these old texts to kill time or something like that, because that does get weird. If he went to this beach party, he'd be at the party socializing, he wouldn't be watching YouTube clips. That's weird.

Katie: He could be showing somebody else this funny show. Maybe they started talking about it and this other person also knows the show and they start watching these clips together. I don't know. That seems possible.

AJ: Yeah, that's true too. You never know, I guess, what people do, but I was just thinking if it's a bonfire and there's people drinking it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility.

Katie: Yeah. It seems more likely though, that you're at a party, you're not going to be watching YouTube clips on your own.

AJ: Yeah. You go down this dark path in order to go to this party, and then you get there and you start watching YouTube clips.

Katie: Yeah.

AJ: It seems weird. At 1:02 AM Theo sends his final text message via WhatsApp to his friend Loic Spiess, who recalls their text conversation as relaxed and normal. Nothing seemed odd or alarming at all about any of the messages he received that night. His last message was, "Yup, very much so." Which was in response to Loic saying "It's surfers paradise, no?" It was just very casual conversation. Theo's last known movements tracked by GPS, before it was turned off, have him sitting on a large rock on the beach and then this is when his trail goes absolutely cold. No more texts, no more calls, no GPS tracking and no further movements with his phone. The working police theory at the time was that shortly after this, he attempted to climb a large embankment that would lead him up to higher ground and then put him back on the route to the hostel. During the 60 Minutes Australia episode the journalist, who's the host of the show and an investigator, takes this route that Theo traveled both in daylight and in the dark. They're walking the same trail, trying to make sense of what happened. When they're standing near that large rock where GPS tracking stops, they open up Google Maps and they try to see which direction it would direct them to go if you were to head back to the hostel. They stand by the rock and open up Google Maps and put in the hostel's location. Google Maps directs them to walk in the opposite way of the large embankment, so they think there would really to be no reason why he would walk up that embankment if going back to the hostel was his intention. That was the complete opposite way plus he would've needed his phone to follow the Google Map directions and his phone stops here and it never moves from that position so, it's not like he had his phone and was following directions on it from there. Like I said, during the police investigation, it is believed that he attempted to climb the embankment and then accidentally fell down onto some rocks, which would've incapacitated him, and then he was swept out to sea. Theo's family and former detective Gary Jubelin, and Gary Jubelin is the one who's with this 60 Minutes journalist, walking the trails, he's adamant that someone was with him at some point along this route and may know more than they're letting on. No one has ever come forward to say that they were with Theo that night, or that they saw him after he left Cheeky Monkeys. Looking at his bank records, his last transactions were from Cheeky Monkeys Bar the night that Theo disappeared. So they know that that was the last place he went. He didn't spend any money or use his bank accounts at any point after that. Another detective that's heading the investigation back in Belgium agrees with Theo's family that there are more people involved and that he wasn't alone on the beach that night. However, Australian authorities have dismissed the disappearance as merely an accident. Coming to the conclusion that he died trying to climb the embankment and fell to his death. 60 Minutes Australia explains that the Australian police came to their conclusions based on cellular phone pings, rather than the GPS data, which is far more accurate. So instead they used the cell phone towers that Theo's phone was pinging off of to determine the final location of his phone, saying that the phone never made it to the top of the embankment and therefore Theo didn't either. It's confusing the way that they explain it in the 60 Minutes Australia episode, but my understanding is that this is because the phone was pinged on a tower that was closer to the bottom of the embankment and not picked up on a tower that it should have been pinged on if it were at the top of the embankment. So because it wasn't pinged off that , that was closer to the top, they say that the phone did not reach the top. However, 60 Minutes Australia says that cellular pings can be inaccurate based on signal and atmospheric conditions, and might have a margin of error of about 78 meters. So we don't know if Theo was separated from his phone or not. Maybe he dropped it on his way up the embankment, but he himself made it to the top and then something happened at some point after that. We don't really know for sure. An interesting thing to note is that Theo's phone continued to ping on nearby towers for nearly 12 hours after his last known movements. So his phone was pinging off these nearby towers up until after 1:00 PM on the afternoon of June 1st. This suggested if Theo did fall into the water as he was trying to climb the embankment just after 1:00 AM that his phone didn't go with him because it would've been destroyed instantly. If it fell into the water it wouldn't have been pinging for 12 hours after. His phone has never been recovered, despite extensive searches of the area by police. Therefore, we have no idea what happened after his GPS tracking is turned off just after 1:00 AM whether he climbed up the embankment and died during this attempt or whether foul play took place. Do you guys have any thoughts so far about any of that?

Stephanie: I don't know why he would climb up an embankment in the middle of the night. The only reason why, I could think of, is if he was trying to get away from somebody and trying to climb up to get away. I don't know. It seems really odd.

Katie: Yeah, why wouldn't you just go back to that path from before? I guess if you're drinking or maybe on drugs, you think differently and you're thinking, "Oh, this would be fun." I don't know.

AJ: Like I said, he was texting people and he was watching clips so nothing that suggests from his phone activity that he was in any danger or that he thought he was in danger. If he was running away from something, he was texting his friends, everything was normal in the text, so unless something escalated very quickly after that. That's why it's weird that there's no signs from any of his texting that anything's off. Maybe he was really drunk or on drugs and thought walking up the embankment would be a good idea, but it's a really steep embankment and it's in the dark, so I can't imagine anyone thinking that. Who really knows?

Katie: Couldn't he have tried to climb up an embankment and then, like they said, fallen, hit the rocks and then the water swept him out. Somebody found his phone and decided they were going to keep it for themselves. Completely separate, didn't know this happened to him. Right? It could be two separate situations,

AJ: The phone location has never moved again.

Katie: Oh yeah. Right. Okay.

AJ: His phone was never found, which is weird. They never found it in that area. It has also never been moved. Which is weird.

Katie: Okay. Yeah. I was thinking, you were saying it was pinging, right? It was pinging at the same spot all night, is that what you were saying?

AJ: Yeah. The towers that were close by, it was pinging in that same location for 12 hours after. He turned his GPS tracking off shortly after 1:00 AM and then his trail goes cold. He's not texting anyone. The GPS is turned off, so it doesn't show him going anywhere, but it is pinging off some of the towers for 12 hours after that. Up until 1:00 PM the next afternoon, it's still pinging off those towers, but those are the same ones that it would've been pinging off anyways. It's like it was still in that same location.

Katie: Okay. Right. He could have lost his phone, maybe dropped it in the dark, couldn't find it. He went off somewhere else.

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Katie: Yeah. Then his phone died.

AJ: Yeah. It eventually died. It was still working for 12 hours after that. Maybe he just dropped his phone, maybe he was climbing the embankment, dropped his phone and it fell down to the bottom. Then he didn't go back for it. I feel like he would, but I don't know. Just seems very odd to me.

Katie: Maybe it was in his pocket and he was climbing up. It fell out. He didn't know. Got to the top, had no clue where his phone was.

AJ: Yeah, that's true too. It's like, fuck, you get to the top and then you realize your phone, is at the bottom, it's like, "Well, do I want to venture down there?"

Katie: Yeah. It could be anywhere from the beach to here.

AJ: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Then it's dark and you're like, "Well, I made it up here. Do I really wanna climb back down?" No you wouldn't.

Katie: Yeah.

AJ: It still doesn't really explain like what happened if he made it to the top, then where did he go? What happened after that?

Katie: Yeah, that's true. You lost your phone doesn't mean you go disappear forever.

AJ: They actually interview someone in the 60 Minutes Australia episode as well and she's an expert in water currents. They actually look up the currents from that night and they show that there was a current that was flowing in two separate directions to the north and the south. Due to these conditions, they say that Theo's body could easily be swept out to sea that night and therefore will likely never be found. Either it would get sucked up into the current and then it would either go north or south with these two currents at the same time. An inquest into his disappearance was launched and the results of which were revealed just last month. In October of 2022, coroner Teresa O'Sullivan declared that Theo Hayez was officially dead, but stated insufficient evidence to say exactly how he died, whether it was an accident or a result of foul play. O'Sullivan also criticized the systemic issues that were at play, which hindered the progress of the initial investigation. For example, she says that the police failed to conduct a thorough investigation of Theo's phone data because they feared that it would violate the privacy laws. I get from that statement that the police didn't check his phone because they feared it would be violating privacy laws versus whether it actually would've been or not. O' Sullivan urges for a change in telecommunication policies that would require phone and tech companies like Google to provide critical information much quicker. Also, she criticized the hostel for failing to report Theo missing as he hadn't arrived back at the hostel for days and failed to check out. As per their policy, they wait three days post checkout date before searching his belongings or reporting someone missing. Changes have been made to wake up hostel's policies because of this case, but the coroner calls for a widespread change to all hostel's policies that would require them to file missing persons reports sooner. That also seems weird to me that the hostel would wait three days .

Stephanie: AJ, you've been to hostels before? Do you know what their policies are or do you know?

AJ: No it never happened to me so I don't know. It just seemed weird. I've stayed in hostels and you get that vibe, it's like a hotel. Everyone's very independent, on their own. No one's really keeping tabs on who's coming and going.

Katie: I think it comes down to money, right? If you're supposed to check out and pay and you don't pay, then they scoop up your stuff and give the room to somebody else that is paying. You know what I mean? Three days of not paying your bill, it seems like a lot, but maybe hostels are more transient. People are just doing their own thing. I don't know. It does seem strange though.

AJ: Well, I feel it's a bit different setup. It's not like a hotel where you pre-book it for a certain amount of dates and then you go and you pay and then you stay and then check out. A hostel, you can do one day at a time. You can go and pay for a few days. It is a bit more laid back in that way.

Katie: Yeah. But don't you have to tell them how long you are staying? You can't just stay there for a week and be like," I'm here for a week."

AJ: Yeah.

Katie: You have to be like," I'm going to be here for a week or extended." It has to be before it happens, right?

AJ: Yeah.

Katie: You can't just stay there for a month and then be like, "I'm gonna be here for a month."

AJ: Yeah, that's true. I mean, maybe you can though, I don't know, maybe. Some hostels are pretty laid back. I mean, I haven't been to a ton. I've been to some and they seem pretty laid back. I feel like a month is excessive, but I don't know. I mean, I guess you do still have check in and check out dates. People are still coming and going and need the rooms, so they need to know when people are coming and going.

Katie: Right. Maybe some hostels though, you don't plan in advance. You just show up. If there's a room available, you can get it. If not, you have to move on. Maybe that was the case with this one where it's like, "No, his stuff's still there. He's still there, so you can't check in." I don't know.

AJ: Like I said, all his belongings were there. There's so many people coming and going, they're not really paying attention or keeping tabs. They could have been like, "Oh well this bed is still taken, all this stuff is here." Also too, I'm going to be totally fair, the hostels that I stayed at, half the workers that were there were also fellow travelers who didn't really give a shit , to be honest. They weren't really on top of their game either. They were like a lot of people, who were traveling and got a job at a hostel for a few months and then move on. Literally a lot of them were like that so they're not really going to be too on top of it, I feel. I mean that was just the hostels I stayed at.

Katie: Yeah. Honestly, I've never stayed at a hostel, but I feel like the vibe is very much like a place, dump your stuff, you're going to go party for a couple days, come back, it's a place to put your stuff almost.

AJ: Yeah, pretty much. I mean obviously there's a lot of different types of hostels, but the ones I've stayed at , some of them were party hostels where they were going out every night and the staff was partying with all of the guests. It was like, "Is there anyone at the front desk right now? It seems like there's no one at the front desk." It seemed very laid back and chill. I could definitely see that it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for it to go three days and then someone realized like, "Oh, this person hasn't been here." Also there's so many different staff. I would come in at night and see the staff and then come back in the morning, there'd be a completely new staff there. I feel like there was like 50 people who worked, or like a hundred people who worked there. They're just rotating all the time. It's never the same staff either, I feel. It was sporadic. It's like the staff might not be seeing or putting two and two together, right?

Katie: Yeah, that's true. They might just see that there's stuff in the room, but they don't necessarily know that it's the same stuff that has been there since a couple days ago. Right? There's just stuff there. "No, you can't go in there." Kind of thing.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe I'm painting the hostel I stayed in, in a very bad light. I feel they're responsible, they're on top of things, but also too, it is very chill too. So I don't know. Basically my point is that , I don't feel, it's not unrealistic to think that you could go three days before someone realizes like, "Oh, this person hasn't been here for three days." Like I said, the coroner has officially declared him dead, but has stated that there is no sufficient evidence to prove how he died, whether it was an accident, if it was foul play, they still don't know and they can't conclude. There's inconclusive evidence either way. There's currently a $500,000 reward for anyone with information about what happened to Theo. The New Zealand Herald reports that this hefty reward has brought forward new leads, which are currently being investigated, and his family has released a statement about their theories and they say, "A key question we are seeking to address is whether he was with someone on the night of May 31st, 2019, which we strongly believe to be the case considering the circumstances. Walking into the bushland and climbing up the grassy side of a Cape Byron cliff alone at night is something we believe Theo would never have done unless he was with someone at the time." The New Zealand Herald reports that Theo had "no known troubles legally, personally, or financially. He was also not believed to be a reckless or aggressive or a heavy drinker and regularly stayed in contact with his family." Therefore, something like suicide is not believed to be what happened that night either. One of the theories also was maybe he jumped off the cliff, maybe he committed suicide, but they don't believe that there's any evidence to suggest that. As for the other theories, misadventure or foul play, we may never know. Theo's mother gave a tearful interview to 60 Minutes Australia, where she states that," I think that we will never know what happened to Theo, but I hope our situation, our story, is helpful to others." In terms of the agony of not knowing what happened, she says, "If you want to go on living, there is a time when you to stop. There will always be sadness until the very end of our life, but it is healthy to stop searching. Theo is unhappy when I'm feeling sad. I also feel Theo is giving me strength." That's where the investigation stands right now. He's still a missing person, even though he is been declared dead. There is no conclusive evidence to suggest what happened to him that night. What would you guys say is the theory that you think? Do you think he was with someone that night? Do you think someone had, you know, evil intentions. They led him to this place. Or do you think maybe he was with someone and then an accident happened and then they covered it up? Or he was with people and then separated from them, and then something happened after that. There's so many possible scenarios and we just don't know one way or the other. What do you guys think?

Stephanie: I think he just fell down the embankment and got swept away in the ocean. Nothing about this case screams suspicious to me except for....

AJ: Why he walked that route? You're not going to go that way unless you're with someone, you're not even going to find that route it's very inconspicuous. Like no person is going to just walk down that trail. It was a significant few kilometers through this bush. I don't feel like you're going to do that by yourself. I don't know why you ever would.

Katie: To me it feels like he definitely was with someone and there was a party at the beach or he was meeting someone to get something. It is hard to say whether that killed him or whether an accident happened and he did fall into the water, but if it was an accident, why wouldn't anyone report it? Or say something that," Yeah, he fell, hit his head and then the water took him away." It seems like because nobody said anything, it feels like somebody did something. It feels like someone did something and they don't want to say anything. If it was an accident, somebody would say something, right? Or go to the police right away.

AJ: Unless they were afraid. Maybe they gave him drugs and then something happened, he overdosed, and then they were afraid of getting in trouble themselves. They were afraid to go to the police, so they just covered it up, which also seems like a stretch. I don't know. Also too, they were thinking maybe he bought drugs off people at the Cricket Nets and then either followed them or one of them and they said, "Oh there's a party at the beach, you want to come?" Then he followed them there and then maybe, he got there and he was like, "Okay, this isn't really my vibe. These people are sketchy," then decided to walk home from there. Then maybe he was disoriented and couldn't find his way back, that route that he came. He is like, "I'm not going to walk back that route because it's confusing and I'll never get back. I'm just going to walk down the beach maybe." Then, decided to go up the embankment, which seems weird. Maybe he thought if he got back up to higher up ground, he could just keep walking that way and that'll be the hostel. Maybe that's a scenario.

Katie: But why go up the embankment? That's so weird. If he knows there's a path to the beach, why not just go back to the path?

AJ: But again, maybe it was so dark. He's not going to remember the route back to the path. I mean he probably would never get there by himself initially, so I don't think he would get back by himself either.

Katie: Yeah, I guess it depends on if he's on drugs or is drunk. But to get to where he is, I feel like he definitely was with somebody.

Stephanie: But for the phone to never be found, but pinged for 12 hours afterwards seems really weird to me too. Normally if it's foul play somebody, would take the phone. Right?

AJ: Yeah, that's true. Maybe he lost it. I don't know. That is a good point.

Stephanie: The phone was still pinging off the same location for 12 hours.

Katie: Yeah. But maybe he fell, his phone was dropped farther up the cliff, he rolled down and the waves took him away. The tide comes in, takes his phone later. I don't know, it seems like a stretch, but it could happen.

AJ: Yeah, it's not farfetched to think he dropped his phone at some point. It's dark also, and he doesn't have a flashlight. His phone would be his flashlight. If you lose your phone, you're not going to have a light to find it.

Stephanie: But doesn't it have a GPS on it, so they never did locate it afterwards?

AJ: He turned off GPS tracking.

Stephanie: Oh weird.

AJ: When he got to the beach, like I said, he got to that rock, and then he turned off GPS tracking, which in the 60 Minutes episode, they say maybe to save battery. I mean it was still working his phone for 12 hours after that. I don't know how low the battery was, but he turned it off for some reason. Maybe to save data or something, I don't know. Then texted his friends while he was on the rock . Those texts that he was sending were there and then turned off his phone, GPS tracking and then that was it. So I don't know.

Katie: Yeah, for him to be thinking enough to be like, "Oh, I should turn off my GPS tracking. It's eating up my data." You're not super drunk at that point, right? You're thinking clearly and you're like, "I've got to turn this off so my battery doesn't die." Someone who's super drunk and on drugs isn't going to be thinking about that, I wouldn't think. But I don't know. It's hard to say..

AJ: I was like, "Well, maybe it was someone else who turned off the GPS tracking." But also then I'm like, "No, because then he texted his friends right after that." From all of his texts everything is normal. He's texting normally. Also the police are saying in his texts, they don't think he was drunk either because he's texting coherently, he's using proper grammar, punctuation. He's not out of his mind. All of his texts are looking normal. I feel if someone's really drunk, you can tell, maybe they're texting a little bit off, but it wasn't.

Katie: It almost makes me think that he was fine and then maybe he got some drugs at the beach from somebody. Then that's when things went downhill from there, after he was texting everybody. If somebody did foul play and they have his phone, my first instinct would be, chuck this into the water so that it doesn't work anymore. Right? I don't know.

AJ: Yeah, exactly. Also in my mind, I guess when I was watching the episode and they were talking about this I was thinking the GPS tracking got turned off and then something happened to him. We don't know that for sure. He could have turned that off and then maybe nothing happened to him for six hours later. You know what I mean? Like you said, yeah, maybe he did text his friends, then tried some drugs and then it was a few hours later when something happened. In my mind, the tracking got turned off, he texted his friends and then something happened. There could have been many hours in between that we don't know.

Katie: Yeah, that's true. He could've lost his phone and then continued on trying to get back to the hostel. Something could've happened on the way there. The beach and that path could have nothing to do with it. It just happened to be where he was. Then he got out of that situation and it was hours later. That's true.

AJ: Yeah. He could have lost his phone. Maybe he did climb up the embankment, lost his phone, got to the top of the embankment and started walking back, and then something else happened to him that's completely separate from all of this. Just because his phone was last there, everyone thinks like, "Okay, that was where something must have happened." but we don't know that for sure. We just know that that was the last location of his phone, but we don't know that that was the last location of him.

Katie: Yeah, that's true. It's super weird.

AJ: Like I said, there's no other CCTV footage of any other place that ever caught images of him after he left the bar. So really all we have is that he left the bar and then took this route to the beach and then his phone was stopped at the beach. It's very strange and very mysterious. I don't really know what I think. The easy conclusion to come to is that he probably just fell, he was climbing up the embankment. If he's not drunk why would you do that? To me, anyone in their rational mind is not going to think of that, especially at nighttime, by yourself. To me, that just seems like not a possibility.

Katie: It's true, but I mean, he sounds like an adventurous person to be on this trip for seven months. That's somebody who wants an adventure, right? So, I don't know, maybe he did want to climb up this embankment just because. Right? I don't know.

AJ: It's also dark. The journalist and the police when they go and walk these routes in the daytime and nighttime and they say it looks like a huge embankment. It looks like a mountain almost. You can just see the outline of it. They said that it just seems weird that somebody would see that and be like, "Oh, I'm going to climb that." It just seems really odd.

Katie: Yeah, maybe he just could not find the path again and was like, "This is a way out. I'm going to climb up this." I don't know.

AJ: Also too, you have to remember that he is 18, which is young, right? I feel like if you're a little bit older than that, you may have more common sense about you to say like, "Okay, that's not a good idea." But maybe when you're an 18 year old and you're adventurous you're like, "Oh, I can conquer this. No problem." That is also a possibility.

Katie: Yeah, that's true.

AJ: So it's still very odd. Like I said, the $500,000 reward has led to some new leads or some new tips. So police are currently investigating that, so we might know, but I mean, if his body got washed out to sea, then obviously we'll never ever find it. It's also weird that they never found his phone. I would have to think his phone must have got swept into the ocean. How would they never found it? The police and volunteers have searched that area extensively and never found his phone, so it has to be swept out to sea, right? Like that's the only possible...

Katie: Unless somebody took it for some reason and then never turned it back on, which seems weird. Why would you do that? The fact that they've had leads and tips come in it definitely feels like somebody was with him, right? Why would you come forward with random information if you didn't actually know anything. Right? So somebody must have been with him, so he didn't travel there by himself.

AJ: I mean, also too, you never know, $500,000 people say all sorts of things for money. People might just be saying completely bogus things.

Katie: I guess. If it leads them to investigate, it makes me feel like yes, he was with people, at least one person that knows what happened, but I don't know.

AJ: Yeah, maybe the tips are just people who are coming forward and saying like, "Oh yeah, I saw him that night. He was at the beach party that I was at." Maybe not someone who did anything to him, but just someone is like, "Oh yeah, he was at this beach party." Which would confirm he made it to the beach though with his phone, so we know he was there. But I don't know what that information, I guess if someone said he was at the beach party, that wouldn't really help much. They already knew he was there, but maybe they didn't know other people were there. They don't know if there was a party that night right? Maybe that would confirm that there were other people who saw him. I mean, every tip can lead to something. You never really know. It's just very odd and mysterious and I don't know if we'll ever know, but I'm hoping that we can get some sort of closure. Like I said, if his body was washed out to sea, they'll never find it.

Katie: Yeah. It's weird. It's a weird one. .

AJ: Yeah, it really is. It's super weird. The good thing is it was his mother that got into his phone and found that GPS data. The GPS data is the only thing that we really have to go on. Right? It is very extensive. We know the exact route. That's a great thing about technology these days too, right? In cases like this you can trace the exact steps of everyone so they know the exact route that he went. It helps paint a picture of what happened. You know he was there versus like, "Oh, he just left the bar and then was never seen again." It still leads to more questions than answers. It's still frustrating. As many answers as it comes up with, it also poses way more questions.

Katie: Yeah, that's true. It's either the trail goes cold after the bar, or the trail goes cold at the beach. It still doesn't really give us answers.

AJ: That's still probably the better scenario ,that it went cold at the beach because at least they have something to go on. Right? They know he went this route on this beach. It gives plausible theories of like, "Oh, maybe he climbed the embankment," versus if he just went cold at the bar, who knows?

Katie: Yeah, that's true.

AJ: It's still a little bit better, but not any more clear.

 That's the case of Theo Hayez. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Crime Family. Remember, if you like the show and you're a fan and you want to stay connected with us, definitely join us on Patreon, patreon.com/crime family podcast. You can also check out our merch store on Red Bubble. We'll put the link in the show notes to that, and you can also follow us on all the social medias. On Instagram at crimefamilypodcast, we're on Twitter at crimefamilypod1, and Facebook Crime Family Podcast. Send us your case suggestions. Send us an email at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. We'd love to hear your suggestions or your tips or anything you'd like to let us know. Definitely send us an email and check out our website@crimefamilypodcast.ca. Thank you so much for listening and we hope you enjoyed the episode and we'll see you next week for a whole new case. So thanks. Bye

Stephanie: Bye.

Katie: Bye.