S03E19: THE NOVA SCOTIA MASS SHOOTING (PART I)

Katie: This is actually the biggest mass shooting in Canadian history. It's very scary and it's tragic. Like I said, it hits close to home for all of us.

Stephanie: It was terrifying because I didn't know how bad it was going to get. Then it was just like one of those things I will always remember where and what I was doing that day.

Jennifer: I didn't know what the hell was going to happen, but it was just, "Where's this man going to end up and what the hell is he going to do next?"

AJ: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Crime Family. This is our season three finale. It's going to be a two part finale episode. I'm your co-host AJ. And I'm here with my two sisters, Stephanie and Katie. We do have a special guest for this episode. If you've listened to the podcast, back in season one, you'll remember this guest. We have Jennifer Knowles here. She's one of my good friends and she's here to join us for the finale episode. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for coming on the show. We're happy to have you. For the finale, we are going to be discussing the Nova Scotia mass shooting that happened in April of 2020. I just want to say upfront, this case and the discussion contains intense and upsetting topics such as domestic violence and a mass shooting event, which might be triggering to some listeners. Please use discretion when listening to this episode, and we also wanted to take a moment and dedicate this episode to the memories of those lives lost in the senseless act of mass violence and to their families. Additionally, it is dedicated to the victims of senseless gun violence, all over the world. Most recently the young children killed in the elementary school mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas, and those killed in the mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, just this past May. Our hearts go out to all the victims and their families. In the show notes of the episode, we will be putting links to various resources to support the families of these victims and where to seek mental health and counseling support as a result of gun violence, if needed. I just wanted to put that at the start of the episode. Katie will get us started on discussion about this case.

Katie: Like we said, this is the Nova Scotia mass shooting, and this case is special because it literally is very close to home for all of us. All four of us grew up in Nova Scotia, not exactly in the town where this started, but we all have connections to Halifax and Dartmouth, where I used to live. Steph and Jennifer still live in the area. It does hit close to home. We are just touching the surface as there's a lot out there, and there's so much more detail than we're able to cover in our two part finale. I'm glad that we didn't cover this when it first came out because there was a lot of misinformation that came out at the very beginning. Now over two years later, while there's still a lot of questions, at least more of the truth has been uncovered. This is actually the biggest mass shooting in Canadian history. It's very scary and it's tragic. Like I said, it hits close to home for all of us.

AJ: I think too, putting it into context for those, I know we have a lot of listeners in the US who might not be necessarily familiar with Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia, it's a pretty small Canadian province on the east coast of Canada. I think it's just surpassed 1 million in population. It is very small in population and also very small geographically. So I Google mapped it out and if you drive from one end to the other, from Cape Breton to Yarmouth, that's about a seven hour drive if you drive straight through. Geographically it's very small. It gives you that feeling like when these sort of things happen or if there ever is any type of event that happens, it's like your first thought is going to be, "Do I know any of the victims?", Just because it is a very small place. You feel like, you know that six degrees of separation, it feels much less than that in Nova Scotia, even though obviously you don't know everyone. Our small town we grew up in is only a few thousand people, but it gives you context for this because you never would expect something, like Katie said, it's the biggest mass shooting in Canadian history. You wouldn't think something like that would happen in a small little place like Nova Scotia. I just wanted to give a bit of context there.

Katie: Yeah. We don't know any of the victims directly, but if we did some digging, we probably know somebody who knows somebody who knows one of the victims or the families. That's how close and how small the province really is. So I remember when I first got the news that this was happening, I was sitting in my living room in BC. Even though I was out in BC, of course it still was, you know, terrifying. I first got the notification that there was a shooter in Nova Scotia and to be honest, I had never heard of Portapique where this started, but of course I had heard of Wentworth and Enfield and Elmsdale and of course Dartmouth. I knew all those places and it was like, "Oh shit, what's happening." Do you guys remember how you felt when you first heard about it and especially Steph and Jennifer, you guys were in Nova Scotia when it was happening? What were your thoughts?

Stephanie: Well, I remember I was on maternity leave and it was April. So the weather was still not great, but I remember sitting at home. I remember Nick saying something about a shooter going around and I'm like, "What?" At that time there was no alert, or notification like big blasts on your phone. There was none of that. I was like, "Okay, what's going on?" Nick was like, "Yeah, there's somebody shooting." They were telling everybody to lock their doors, so I literally locked my doors, locked my windows, even though I was in Halifax and he was in Truro. He was in a car so he could have came to Halifax or where I live in Lower Sackville. I was pretty scared. I had a young child at the time and we didn't hear any information. We had no idea where he was or what he was doing. It was terrifying because I didn't know how bad it was going to get. It's one of those things I will always remember, where and what I was doing that day. It's just one of those crazy things.

Jennifer: Yeah, pretty much the same thing with me. I live right in Dartmouth where he was on his way back and social media was just completely blowing up. Facebook, everybody had this post about this man who was on a rampage and started off in Portapique and he was going towards Truro. When I saw Truro, I immediately thought of my brother and his family and it scared me fucking shitless. I didn't know what the hell was going to happen. Where's this man going to end up? What the hell is he going to do next? Right? Terrifying.

Katie: Yeah, it is scary. I was scared and I was nowhere near it so I can't imagine how it would've felt for you guys and people that were there. AJ do you have anything to say about the matter ?

AJ: Oh yeah. I obviously I didn't live in Nova Scotia at the time. So I don't have that experience of being in the province, but I just remember hearing about it and I honestly, I can't remember, I think it would've been the next or that morning, the first time I heard about it. I think probably on Twitter or social media somewhere, but I remember just being scared for everyone I knew in Nova Scotia because there wasn't a ton of information coming out. Things were blowing up on social media, but I feel like you never, you didn't really know if a lot of it was speculation, so you didn't really know what was happening. You would just get like blasts of there was an event here and then an event here, so then you're thinking, oh, is it multiple people or what's going on? I just remember being scared for obviously my parents and then Steph and everyone I knew who lived in Nova Scotia. That's what I remember from that day.

Katie: Yeah. As we get into this, you'll see that there really wasn't a lot of official notification from the RCMP coming out. There was probably a lot of speculation from people and firsthand experiences happening, but there was nothing. The police weren't really being involved with social media that much so I think that didn't help the situation at all and made everything more crazy. There is a lot that is going on in this case, and I'm going to try and stick to the timeline chronologically for the most part, just to try and stay on track. A lot of this is from the Nighttime Podcasts, who outlined it very well. They also have a lot of detailed episodes about it as well. A lot of the information also comes from the Mass Casualty Commission Report that came out in February of 2022 about this case. We're going to discuss the timeline and events as we go. Part two, we'll focus more on the police inquiry that is ongoing and all their mistakes and missteps along the way. A little bit about Portapique. It's in Colchester County, Nova Scotia, and it's small. It has a permanent population that is less than 200 people, probably closer to less than 100 people. I think in the summer when it has some of the residents that come to live there just for the summer is when it gets closer to 200 people. It has a lot of cottages and summer homes. One resident named Gabriel Wortman, he had a cottage in Portapique, but he lived most of the time above one of his denture clinics in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, which is, you know, part of the city of Halifax. He was a Denturist. He had actually wanted to become a police officer when he was younger. A little bit about Gabriel Wortman, according to an article by Michael McDonald for CBC News Atlantic, a relative of Gabriel's said that he was raised in a dysfunctional family and he had a reputation of being a lifelong scam artist and opportunist. Gabriel's uncle named Chris Wortman was actually a former Mounty and he says that it didn't surprise him to learn that Gabriel was the one who committed these horrible killings. Chris said that he never thought Gabriel would go on a rampage like this, that wasn't something that was on the top of his mind, but he always thought that maybe he would kill his parents or kill his common law wife, Lisa Banfield one day.

AJ: So I just want to say I remember reading that article too. That also just struck me very weird that he said that. That he was like, "Oh, I just thought he could kill his partner or his parents." It just seems like it was just a very weird thing.

Katie: So Gabriel was apparently very abusive towards Lisa and he cheated on her a lot with anyone that he could basically so he obviously really didn't care about her feelings. Chris says that Gabriel's parents were very strange and bizarre people. That's how Gabriel turned out as well. Because of that, he really didn't ever have a lot of friends. Chris was the last family member of Gabriel's to be associated with him but he eventually became estranged from him as well. He said he just had this feeling that he had to cut ties from him. So Gabriel was completely isolated from the rest of his family eventually. Like I mentioned, Gabriel had wanted to be a police officer, but he never actually did become one, but he still did collect a lot of police paraphernalia. He had police uniforms and he even had former police, RCMP vehicles, which in Nova Scotia are white Ford Tauruses. You can buy them at auctions, but they're completely stripped down of all the police equipment and of course, all the decals and the lights and everything would be taken out of the vehicle. So it would just be like a plain white car and he actually had a couple of these in his possession. He was able to meticulously recreate an RCMP lookalike vehicle that was virtually indistinguishable from the real one. So he took a lot of time in getting the right decorations, the right symbols to make his car look exactly like a real one. I think he even had the flashing lights. So you can see that he was very prepared for this attack that he was about to go on and maybe he didn't plan it out completely, but just the fact that he had planned so meticulously the replication of this vehicle, you know, you can tell that he had put some thought into what he was going to do with that car. He also collected firearms and he didn't have a license to own any or most of them. So that's a little bit about Gabriel, a bit of background. This whole story starts on April 18th, 2020. This was Gabriel and his common law wife Lisa's 19th anniversary. This is 2020, and this is when COVID first was getting serious in Nova Scotia and the lockdowns were starting to happen. That may have been a factor into what was going on inside Gabriel's head. Maybe it was affecting him stress wise or paranoia. Maybe this was just something else that was built onto some of the issues that he was already having. The Nighttime Podcasts recounts Lisa's telling of that night, and she says that her and Gabriel were FaceTiming with one of their friends from Maine. That friend had made a comment, because they were talking about how the next year for their 20th anniversary, they wanted to do a formal commitment ceremony, Lisa and Gabriel. Their friend from Maine said, "No, don't do it. Run." For whatever reason, she said that, but this made Lisa really upset and she just left the conversation. Then she came back and she wanted to explain that she wasn't angry at Gabriel, she was angry at her friend for making the comment. For whatever reason, this just triggered something in Gabriel. This is where he completely loses his shit. Lisa went to go to bed and Gabriel follows her into the bedroom and he rips her out of the bed and he keeps saying, "It's done Lisa, it's done." He tied her hands behind her back. He starts to pour gasoline all over the floors. He lit the house on fire and he drags Lisa out to another building that was on the property. He's telling her that he is going to burn everything down and then they're going to head to Halifax. They're in Portapique at this time. He locked her in the back of this replica police car that he had. By this time he's dressed in his police uniform that he had, and he's starting to load up the back of the car with his firearms. He tried to put Lisa in handcuffs and she's struggling in the back of the car and she's able to slip out through, I guess he had that partition in the back of the car that you would see in a police car from between the front and the back seat. She was apparently able to slip through the window in that, to get into the front seat, unlock the front door of the car and run into the woods barefoot. This all happened before 10:00 PM that night. This is April 10:00 PM. It's completely dark. It's cold, but she runs into the woods bare feet without any coat or anything. Gabriel doesn't really waste any time going after her. He just loads up the car and heads off. So his first stop, he travels down the road to his neighbor's house named Greg and Jamie Blair. They live with their two children. One of their children sees a police car, Gabriel, pull into their driveway. Greg was actually outside. Greg was shot and the kids and Jamie hear the gunshots. Jamie told the kids to go hide in her room and they hide under the bed while she calls 911 around 10:01 PM. She knew who this shooter was. She knew that it was her neighbor. She told the dispatcher on the other end of the phone, that he was driving a police car and they can hear Gabriel entering the house. Jamie was in the room with her kids, but she was bracing herself up against the doorframe so that he couldn't get in and he shoots through the door and then he comes in and kills Jamie in front of the kids. They're under the bed though, but we'll never know, but we don't think that he actually saw the kids or knew that they were in there. He leaves without doing anything to them. I'm going to play a few 911 calls throughout this episode. Just a warning, there are some very disturbing and distressful parts. So this first 911 call is Jamie's call into the police department. Here it is.

911 operator: "911, what is your emergency?"

no speaker: Inaudible

911 operator: I am sorry I can't make out what you are saying.

Jamie: My neighbor... Inaudible

911 operator: You think your husband's been shot? OK. Do you have a home phone or landline to that location? Where are you? What's the civic address?

Jamie: Orchard Beach Drive in Portapique ?

911 operator: Orchard Beach? Is your husband injured?

Jamie: I don 't know. I am on the deck. I don't know. Inaudible...There is a police car in my fucking driveway.

911 operator: There's a police car in the driveway?

Jamie: Inaudible ... But he drives... . He's a denturist . He drives a police car..

911 operator: Sorry, did you say there were police cars in your driveway?

Jamie: Inaudible

no speaker: phone ringing

911 operator: Hello. Hi. Can you see your husband from where you are?

Katie: After that, Jamie is shot, which is where the 911 call ends. Gabriel sets the house on fire. The two kids that were hiding under the bed, they had moved into the closet and once they hear the fire alarm going off in the house, they were able to sneak out and run next door to their neighbors, where they also called 911. They talked to the dispatchers and they're explaining the situation. Again, they said the man who shot their parents and set their house on fire left in a police car and the kid that's on the phone even says that there was lights and everything on the police car. Gabriel had also killed the owner of that home too, which was Lisa McCulley. They didn't know that at the time that they were making this second 911 call because she had gone out to see what was happening next door. She was shot while she was going to check on her neighbors. Here's a portion of that 911 call. Again, it's distressful.

no speaker: Phone ringing

911 operator: Hello.

child: There is a crazy man and he is burning down his own garage. He came over to our house, shot both our parents and is, burning down our house.

911 operator: Where are you at right now? Do you know the address?

child: Yes. inaudible.. We're in, we are at our neighbors house. It's in, we're at what's their address?

911 operator: Are you in Portapique?

child: Yes. Yes, Portapique.

911 operator: OK.

child: Inaudible

911 operator: Miss, Miss, I understand. We've already got calls in for this area there. So there's a fire there now?

child: Yes.

911 operator: Okay.

child: There was fire.

911 operator: Do you know which, do you know which house you're at there in Portapique?

child: Um, Orchard Beach Road.

911 operator: Orchard Beach Road?

child: Orchard Beach Drive. So do you know where Portapique Beach Drive is?

911 operator: Yeah.

child: I mean Portapique Drive is?

911 operator: Yeah.

child: Ok and then you take a left on the first one.

911 operator: Okay. Is that where the fire is?

child: Yeah. Yes.

911 operator: Yes. Okay. Just stay on the phone for me. Okay.

child: That's where we are.

911 operator: Miss. The fires across the street?

child: Yes. Orchard Beach Road.

911 operator: So that's where you are right now?

child: Yes.

911 operator: Where is the fire at? Is it across the street?

child: Yes across the street.

911 operator: Okay. And the fires....

child: He came in. He shot my father 10 times.

911 operator: Okay.

child: When, and when my mom was calling, he came in and he killed her.

911 operator: Okay. Where is she? Is she still in the house?

child: She's dead in her room?

911 operator: In her room. Ok.

child: And she is burning. The house is on fire.

911 operator: Okay. Where's the guy who did this?

child: Um, we don't know. He pulled out of the driveway and then left.

911 operator: What kind of vehicle?

child: Uh, it was a police car. I couldn't find the license.

911 operator: Ok. Did you see anything else about the vehicle? You said it was a police car?

child: Yes, it was.

911 operator: It was?

child: Like a police car.

911 operator: Okay. All right. So we've got police on the way there for the, uh, other part of this. I'm just gonna put you in contact with fire. Okay. I have Orchard Beach Drive in Portapique...

child: And they shot our dog. Half of our dog is missing.

911 operator: Okay. Orchard Beach Drive in Portapique, Colchester county, right?

child: Yes.

911 operator: Okay. And do you have a cell phone number? A number that we can get you?

child: No. What's your phone number?

New Speaker: I don't have a phone.

child: We don't have one. Her mom went over there and she hasn't came back.

911 operator: Ok.

child: We don't know where our little brothers are?

911 operator: Alright. You don't have a phone number or anything?

child: No we don't.

911 operator: Ok. Just stay on the phone for me. I have to put you through to fire for a second. Ok?

child: Ok.

 Phone ringing

911 operator: It's 911 Truro for Bass River Fire. Alright so we have a fire across the street from Orchard Beach Drive in Portapique, Colchester County. She doesn't have a call back number. Uh, there was an incident there with the shooting and everything involved. So there are police and ambulance going there as well, but the house was also lit on fire. Miss, Miss, just one moment please.

New Speaker: Is the area secure to go in?

911 operator: Not at this moment. We are still getting all of the other resources there.

New Speaker: Ok. Can you call us back when it is secure to send fire over?

911 operator: Ok, will do.

New Speaker: Ok. Thank you. Bye.

911 operator: Hi ma'am I am going to put you through to fire. Just one moment.

no speaker: phone ringing

RCMP: Hello. RCMP.

no speaker: Inaudible

Katie: One thing to think about with this 911 call is that there are four kids in this house now and no adults. The two Macaulay children and the two Blair children that had run over there after their parents were shot. So you don't hear the full 911 call, but there are other transcripts out there. The RCMP do take precautions to protect the kids because they know that there are no parents there. They tell them to hide in the basement. They give them a safe word, which is pineapple. So the kids know when it's actually the police coming back for them, and then it's safe to come out. Eventually all four kids are driven in Lisa McCauley's vehicle to another location. It's just hectic. There's so much going on. A few minutes later, now it's 10:22 PM, another 911 call comes in and this comes in from Andrew and Kate McDonald who were home and saw the fires out of their window from their house and they get in their car and decide to go see what's going on. Andrew was calling about the fires, they're now in the car driving down the street and he sees Gabriel dressed as a police officer. Andrew stops to talk to him because he sees him coming up the driveway and Gabriel points his gun at Andrew and shoots him while they're sitting in the car talking to 911. So we're going to play Andrew's 911 call as well. This one, I think is the most distressing you can hear the gunshots and the screaming. We'll play that one for you as well.

911 operator: 911. What is your emergency?

Andrew McDonald: I am calling from Portapique. There's a house on fire down the road from our house. I just didn't know if somebody called already.

911 operator: Yeah. So you can see the house on fire?

Andrew McDonald: Yeah.

911 operator: What's the address?

Andrew McDonald: It's, I don't know the exact address. It's on Orchard Beach Road.

911 operator: Ok, yeah we've got a few calls there. So Orchard Beach Road in Portapique, Colchester County?

Andrew McDonald: Yeah.

911 operator: You see the house on fire?

Andrew McDonald: Yeah. We were just driving down the road to check it out, but, yeah. It's a big garage of one of our neighbors. So he's probably not there.

911 operator: Ok. Just one moment. I'm just going to connect you with fire just to make sure. Ok, just one moment.

Andrew McDonald: Yeah.

phone ringing

911 operator: Bass River fire?

New Speaker (2): Yes.

911 operator: You've got the call there, we believe it's Orchard....

New Speaker (2): Oh my gosh.

911 operator: Yeah. Should be close to that area. Orchard Beach Drive in Portapique, Colchester County.

New Speaker (2): We don't have...

Andrew McDonald: There's another house on fire here.

911 operator: Yeah, he's on the road there, he can see. Do you see two houses on fire?

Andrew McDonald: Yeah, we just drove by another house and their whole kitchen's on fire. A police officer is in the driveway.

New Speaker (4): ...are you aware that there's a situation going on on that road?

911 operator: Yeah, he's just saying that there are two houses now on fire. So we thought we would update you there.

New Speaker (4): Ok.

911 operator: And he's at 902... Are the two houses beside each other sir?

Andrew McDonald: No they are down the road.

911 operator: Down the road from each other?

Andrew McDonald: Yeah. There is a police officer parked in this driveway but I don't know. He is coming around. I don't know if he is going to talk to me or what.

New Speaker (4): Is it safe for them to be on that road right now?

Andrew McDonald: Hi....

Screams

Katie: Andrew is shot the arm so he's able to speed away. Gabriel is chasing after them in his police car. There are other witnesses that report seeing three vehicles going at a high speed down the road. It turns out to be that it's Andrew and Kate in their car, Gabriel in his car, and then there's another car, which turns out to be the Faulkner family. They were just arriving on their way back from a trip to Truro and so for whatever reason, they're also speeding down the road. So David Faulkner says that he remembers seeing a police car in the driveway of another residence that was on fire. This was the Gulenchyn residence and David and his family never came into contact with Gabriel so they were not harmed and were able just to drive home. As you can tell, there's so much happening in such a short time and from the time when Gabriel first started, so after Lisa escaped into the woods, and when the police first arrived on scene, this is about 30 minutes have gone by. Throughout this time, there was at least 13 people had been shot and killed, and we don't have details about every single one of them, because there's not a lot out there or known about the timelines or, you know, the police activity during all this. There really is still a lot up in the air. What do you guys think so far?

AJ: Yeah, it's crazy to think about the short window, like you said between the time it started and up to now where we are in the timeline, it's a very short window. The fact that one person could just, it was just crazy in this small rural area that this one man could kill 13 people in that short amount of time. I remember the last time I visited Nova Scotia, when I was home, we actually ended up going on a drive and we just went to the area where this happened. I remember we drove down, I think it was Portapique Road. I remember driving down and there was a sign, there was a fork in the road, but there was a sign, you know, saying, "Please respect the privacy of the families." You couldn't go down this one road where the houses had burned down. It just felt very eerie being there. When you were telling this timeline, I just pictured the roads and the layout of it. It's just so scary just even hearing you say it back. I couldn't even imagine the people who were there witnessing it or in the area at the time.

Stephanie: What I find the most scary part of this whole thing is how he looked like a police officer. I mean, I know some people knew who he was, but if you were just driving by him and you didn't know who he was, you would think he was a police officer. A police officer is supposed to be approachable. They're supposed to be nice and kind. It's so scary to me how he dressed. People weren't really too concerned, like when that guy came out of his house to see why the police officer was in his driveway and he just shoots him. It's so scary to me that people can just pass as a police officer so easily.

AJ: Yeah. You know when you see a police officer or you see a police car pull up in your driveway, you're not thinking, oh, it's an imposter. You're going to think obviously it is a police officer. The fact that Gabriel himself probably knew that and that's how he knew he was going to be able to do this in large part because he had the guise of the police vehicle and all of that stuff. It's just very scary.

Jennifer: Yeah, that's honestly terrifying. I think one of the scariest things about this whole situation are the 911 calls. I don't understand how those kids stayed so calm. It blows my mind. If I was a kid and I was in that situation, I don't know if I would ever be able to stay that calm on the phone. It's just mind blowing.

Stephanie: Yeah, because when he says, the 911 dispatcher, says "Oh where is your dad?" "Oh, he's laying down in the dirt and my mom's upstairs dead," he doesn't even flinch. He's just calm about it. I think there's so much going on in that moment that he's just trying to get help as fast as he can and he knew if he spoke really quickly, and was really frantic it would be harder for the dispatcher to understand what he was trying to say.

AJ: I don't even know, I mean that's a good point, but I don't even know, if as a child, you even have that much sort of forethought of, " I need to remain calm." I feel like maybe he was just so traumatized and just couldn't understand what was happening. I don't know, it's just crazy to me that struck me too, that the kids were very calm.

Jennifer: It could have been just a, a full state of shock too. If I was in shock like that, I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know what to do in this situation, but you know, everybody reacts differently.

Katie: Yeah. It is amazing how the kid is really able to talk to the police officers that calmly and another detail that I didn't mention was the phone that he is talking to the police on is his father's phone. He had to go to his father's dead body and get the cell phone out of his pocket and then they ran across the street. So I mean, just the foresight to be, "I need to get this phone so I can call and get help," and then run over to his neighbors, that's just crazy. This kid is actually amazing for not flipping out about that. He is like, "Yeah, both my parents are dead. My house is on fire. I had to fish this phone out of my dead dad's pocket." My God! Traumatizing for sure. Police show up on the scene shortly after all those 911 calls come in around 10:30 PM and they set up roadblocks to try and trap Gabriel. If you remember when you're listening to those phone calls, especially Andrew and Kate, they say who it is. They say, "It's Gabe. It's my neighbor, Gabe. He's driving a police car." So they should be aware at this point of who, at least they think it is and that he's driving a police car. So they block off both ends of the road. Of course, Portapique is this little place and there's only one main road. They just block off both ends basically. However, there was a blueberry field that had a road through it that would allow anyone going down that road to bypass these roadblocks. According to Elizabeth McMillan ,reporting for CBC news, one of the constables on the scene, the fourth one to arrive on scene that night, her name was Constable Vicki Colford. She was talking to the shooting victims, Andrew and his wife, Kate, and they both told her that there was a potential other way out, down that blueberry field road. Colford actually said over the radio, "If you guys want to have a look at the map, we're being told, there's a road that someone could come out before here, if you know the road well." Then later it comes out that Colford says she had no recollection of saying that over the radio and the three other senior officers that were there on scene, do not remember hearing it over their radio either. They only know that this happened when they're reviewing the inquiry documents later on that there was a record of this happening. She said it, doesn't remember it, three other officers didn't hear it on their radio, so, I mean, everyone's maybe just so panicked, so in shock, they're not even listening to themselves or their radios, which is a huge deal.

AJ: I question, did they really not hear it? Or do they are just saying that now during the inquiry, because of all the mistakes they made?

Katie: I don't know. I mean, I guess we'll never know if they actually heard it or maybe they did hear it, but they just weren't really paying attention because, you know, there was so much going on. She said she doesn't even remember saying it, which is another weird thing. Maybe, I guess, in their defense, she was saying that she was talking to the victims who were frantic because, you know, Andrew had just been shot and she was trying to talk to them about the situation. She said that she felt like a sitting duck. She was just concerned that they were going to get ambushed. That Gabriel was going to come up, sneak up behind them and ambush them. She said, she just felt like a sitting duck sitting there and was just constantly looking around every vehicle that pulled up. She was just terrified of who might be in it so I can see why maybe she wasn't paying complete attention to everything else that was going on. I mean, still that's four people that somehow missed that whole communication.

AJ: Aren't you trained in situations like that? Isn't that part of your training as police? There's a police officer that said that or an RCMP officer right?

Katie: Yes. She said it over their radio.

AJ: Yeah. So I feel like you're going to be in those types of situations. Maybe not comparable to that, but intense situations. I know it's a small community, so maybe they're not as used to it, but I still feel like you should be trained to be able to react appropriately in intense, and frightening situations. But again, I don't know. I guess the points that you made were right. I guess at that point, maybe you're running on adrenaline and you're not going to remember every little detail or every little thing you say.

Stephanie: You're also trained to look at every avenue. If someone says there's a person in the basement, you're going to go check that person. You don't just say, "If you want to look at this area, you can." You're trained if someone's telling you something and it could be important, you go look to see. Chances are it could be something that's worth looking at. You don't just brush it off.

AJ: I try not to play devil's advocate, but also too, I feel like it's hard because we're sitting here, you know, it's, after the fact knowing what happened and knowing all the horrible things that he did before that, and will do later. It's hard to be in that moment, not think that. I guess at the time you're not thinking that it's going to be on this massive scale that it ended up being. You might think it's small, isolated, there's two fires. I just think it's also hard too, to put ourselves in their minds because we're thinking of it after the fact. I don't want to go too easy on them either, because I do think that they fucked up in many, many ways that's not acceptable.

Katie: Yeah. We have the benefit of hindsight here and it's easy for us to judge. I mean, we're not RCMP officers. We don't know their training and you can just imagine how stressful it would've been regardless of your status, RCMP or not. I think another point to make is that this early stage, even though they'd been told multiple times that it was an RCMP car, I don't think that they're fully convinced that it was a full on replica. They might have thought that it was mistaken for an RCMP vehicle, because they said that they know that Gabriel had those cars and collected those white sedans, but nobody ever saw that he had a full on completed car. They might just be thinking that it's being mistaken for an RCMP car. Also what's fresh in everyone's mind at this point is the Moncton shooting that happened recently at this point, and they're being told not to put themselves in a situation where they can be ambushed, so not to block themselves in where somebody could come up in front of them and they have no way out. I think all of this is fresh in their mind that they don't want to get stuck in a situation like the Moncton shooting because you know, multiple officers were killed in that. It's very stressful. There's lots of things at play here.

AJ: Yeah and also, I don't know if, I'm sorry I don't know if you said, but I feel we do have a lot of American listeners or people who aren't in Canada, so RCMP is Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It's our version of the police, if anyone's wondering when we're saying RCMP. Just think of a police car when we say RCMP vehicle. It's a police car.

Katie: Right. Yeah.

AJ: Decked out like a police car. Yeah. I don't know if you said that, but I just wanted to...

Katie: No, I didn't. There's also speculation, and this comes up in the Nighttime Podcast, that Gabriel may not have even needed to take that back road through the blueberry field. He could have just driven right past the roadblocks in his police car. At this point, like I said, they weren't completely sure that it was an RCMP vehicle. I don't know if this is true or if this is just speculation, but it was brought up that he could have just driven past everybody. At this point, the RCMP did start evacuating some of the residents in that area on that same night, when they couldn't find Gabriel. Despite the carnage that he had left behind already, it hadn't even been a couple of hours and there's burning buildings, there's dead bodies. The police only warn the public that there was a firearms complaint in the Portapique area and that the residents should lock their doors. That's all they said. They didn't mention anything about actual murders and that this guy might be in an RCMP vehicle. They just said there was a firearms complaint. They did this via Twitter, which has been ripped apart by everybody, I think, that talks about this case because I mean, I don't think a lot of people looked at Twitter for emergency updates. I don't even use Twitter, so if something was happening in my area and Twitter was the only way that they were notifying people, I wouldn't have a clue what was going on. This was at 11:32 PM when they updated Twitter as their only form of update.

AJ: That's the one thing too, that I can't even wrap my head around. I mean we have the benefit of hindsight, but I can't even imagine at the time how they could think that putting it on Twitter was enough. To me, I can't even think of why they would even assume that Twitter was the go-to way. We have those alert systems for a reason. They have to understand that not everyone has Twitter and even if you do have Twitter, not, everyone's going to be on it at 11:00 PM at night to be aware. I just think it's a very weird decision to make in the moment.

Katie: Yeah. That might be their way that they notify the public about everything though and this was just another thing that they were using Twitter for. A good point that was also brought up in the Nighttime Podcast was that Portapique is really out in the middle of nowhere and so a lot of people probably didn't even have stable wifi to go on to Twitter, even if they wanted to. I think even if they knew Twitter was where they had to go, they probably couldn't even get there very easily. It just was not a good idea, but I mean, this is still only a couple hours into this whole rampage. It was 11:32 PM that they sent that Twitter update. Like I was saying, they didn't mention anything that he could be potentially driving a car that looked like a police vehicle. They didn't have to say it was a full on RCMP car, but they didn't even say anything about what he was driving. Obviously the roadblocks that they had set up had failed. Around 11:12 PM on April 18th they find Gabriel is seen on security footage. That is obtained later. He's pulling into a garage parking lot in Debert, which is a nearby town. This is where he spends the night in his car. He has gotten out of the area, but the police roadblocks are still there hoping that they're going to find him. The police are looking into the speculation that he could have a stolen police vehicle, but they do confirm that it is not one of their cars that has been stolen because all of their RCMP cruisers are all accounted for. So they're at this point, still, probably not thinking that it's an exact replica and that maybe people are just mistaking it for a police car. And they did find out that he did have a white Ford Taurus that had a band of reflective tape down the side. So they were thinking that maybe since it was dark outside, maybe people saw this in their driveway. They might think it was a police car. I don't know if that's a good explanation, but that's what they were thinking.

AJ: That makes sense. Like you were saying before, how similar it was to an RCMP car. You would never think that somebody would be able to pull it off to look exactly like it. You are going to think, "Oh, they're saying it's an RCMP car. It must just be, like you said, that white car with the thing down the side. That must be what they thought was an RCMP vehicle." You're not going to think that it's that close of a replica. It actually was.

Katie: Yeah. When you're listening to those 911 calls, people do say it's a police car, but then some of them, like the dispatchers are, "Is it a police car?" They're like, "Well, it looks like a police car. Yeah, I think it is." They're not a hundred percent saying it is a police car.

AJ: Jamie does say in that 911 call, she does say that, you know, "He's a Denturist, he drives RCMP vehicles." She does try to make that clear. I guess either the dispatcher didn't hear that or...

Katie: The dispatcher mistakes it for, "There's RCMP cars in your driveway?" and she's saying, "Yes, but it's him driving that car. " She said, "Oh, did you say that there's an RCMP car in your driveway?" They're still not clueing into what's actually happening. There's definitely just miscommunication about what's happening.

AJ: She probably thought like, "Oh, you mean the RCMP are there right now responding to this call?"

Katie: Yeah, when really she was saying, "There's an RCMP car but it's not the RCMP.

AJ: There were parts of the audio that were unclear. I don't know if that was just that version that we listened to or if that's how it actually was. Maybe the reception wasn't great. There were a few like words that were cut off. It also wasn't clear either what she was saying. There were a few words that just got lost. Maybe that was just our shitty version that we listened to. I don't know if that was the actual, how it sounded in the moment.

Katie: Yeah. I don't know. There's a lot of inaudibles and some stuff is cut out. You can look at the transcripts. I haven't done that. They might be clearer. Like I was saying, they were thinking that maybe that white car with the strip down the side could be what people were mistaking the car for. At 1:54 AM on April 19th, they did find that vehicle parked in a parking lot. There was snow on top of it, which was undisturbed, so they knew that it had been sitting there for a while and that that wasn't the car being used. There's another hint that it wasn't just being mistaken for this car because it wasn't the one he was driving. At around 5:30 AM on April 19th, Gabriel is on the move again. He leaves that parking lot in Debert and he heads to the small town of Wentworth. He gets to the home of his next victims, who are actually some of his friends, Alanna Jenkins and Sean McLeod. They were both killed in their house and the house was set on fire. No one was able to call 911 during this attack so neither of the residents in the house, they were probably sleeping at the time of the attack is what I'm assuming, so neither of them were able to call 911 and both were killed. Gabriel again, was able to slip out of there undetected. Now it's been almost nine hours since this whole thing started. Lisa who's Gabriel's partner finally emerges from the woods where she was hiding. It's about 6:30 when she finally comes out and goes to a neighbor's house and calls 911. They go out there and talk to her. This is when she actually tells them straight up that Gabriel had an exact replica of an RCMP vehicle. He was dressed in the RCMP uniform and he was loading up that car with firearms the last time she saw him. So 7:30 AM on April 19th, the police have further confirmation that he is driving an RCMP vehicle, but they still didn't warn the public about it. They didn't tell the public that there's some madman on a rampage, in an RCMP car, which still, still blows my mind. I'm not sure why they just wouldn't say anything.

AJ: I know it makes me so angry and annoyed. I really don't understand. Were they afraid of confirming it for some reason? They knew that was the information. Why they wouldn't put that out there at that moment is just, I don't know.

Katie: I know. I feel like they're trying to protect themselves and be like, "Oh, we don't want people to know that there's a car out there that looks like ours." That's all I can think of. I don't understand why they wouldn't warn people about it. Yeah. At this point, the police should know that Gabriel's no longer in the area. It's such a small community, there's just that one, actually two roads out and they can't find him and they don't see his car anywhere. They must know that he's escaped, but they don't warn the public that he may be on the loose. They did make another Tweet though, that there was an active shooter in Portapique. They're now saying that there's an active shooter in Portapique after he's already been gone for hours. They did notify police stations across the province to be on the lookout for Gabriel. They told them that he was in a police vehicle. They knew he was probably out there in a police vehicle, not in Portapique, but they didn't warn the public that he had left the Portapique area at this point. 8:54 AM they tweet again that they know who the shooter is and they release his photo to the public and they release the names of some of his victims, but they still don't warn the public about the police car. It doesn't matter that the people know what he looks like because as soon as ,like we were saying before, you see an RCMP vehicle, you're going to feel safe and trust the person in that car. It just doesn't seem like they care that much about this for some reason. Gabriel leaves the home of Alanna and Sean around 9:30. He spends a couple hours at their house. He sets it on fire. When their neighbor, Tom Bagley comes out, he sees the fire, he tries to help. Tom Bagley is a retired firefighter and sadly Gabriel sees him and shoots him as well. He dies. 9:32 AM is when the next 911 call comes in from another neighbor about the fire and the shooting. I guess she saw what was going on. 9:35 AM another 911 call comes in and this caller says that she saw a police car leaving the scene of the fire. She also reports seeing another one of her neighbors named Lillian Hislop on the side of the road, just laying there, not moving. 9:47 AM, Corporal Peterson sees Gabriel driving past him while he's responding to these 911 calls. He actually recognizes Gabriel and calls in to confirm that he sees him. Meanwhile, Gabriel goes to another home of someone he knows, and he knocks on the door and is telling them that it's the police. Before he had got there, they were looking out the window and they actually see him and they recognize that it's Gabriel and so they call 911. Fortunately for them, he leaves without getting in their house. Again, he escapes before the police get there. Now it's 10:02 AM and there's another 911 call that comes in from a woman who was talking on the phone with her friend named Heather O'Brien. While they were talking, Heather tells her that she heard gunshots and she saw a police vehicle moments before she starts screaming. Then the call ends. Heather was also shot by Gabriel in her car. Finally, at this point is when the police warn the public about the replica police car, that Gabriel is driving. It's still only via Twitter though. They give an explanation of what makes this car a little bit different than a real police vehicle. They point to the numbers on the back of the car, which don't match any of the actual RCMP vehicles so they're saying if you see that number on the back of the car, then that's the fake one. At least they're telling them, but this is 12 hours later at this point.

AJ: I guess then they can put out the number. Which is good, but I guess realistically, who's going to get a good look at the number necessarily on the car? I guess that's the only way to identify it from other RCMP cars, but I feel like, you know, if the car's pulling up next to you or, you know, you see it from a distance, you're not necessarily going to see the number on the side.

Katie: By the time you can see what that number is, they're already right beside you.

AJ: Yeah. You're only going to see it when you're really close to it. If you're really close to it, it's not going to be good.

Katie: Yeah, exactly.

Stephanie: I still can't wrap my head around how they just didn't alert the public about the vehicle until 12 hours after the fact. By that time it was almost too late because of the damage that already been done. I feel like there could have been a better way of alerting the public.

AJ: I mean, we literally have national alerts on your phone for a reason. You know, those Amber alerts that you get on your phone. It's designed for situations like this. The fact that they're not even using that in a situation is really crazy to me.

Katie: I want to say that maybe they didn't know the severity of the situation, but they totally did at this point. There was like 13 people already dead and they knew that he was in a police car, so they knew it had to get worse from here. I don't know what their excuse is. Maybe this'll come out in the public inquiry about why they fucked up so bad. Like I mentioned earlier, some of the Portapique residents were actually evacuated early on and they were staying at the Onslow Belmont Fire Hall. Clearly by this point, the police had figured out that Gabriel is continuing on his spree and it's just chaotic, of course. This is one of the parts of the case where I'm just like, "What the fuck is happening?" It's 10:22 AM in the morning, two RCMP officers pull up to this fire hall and they get out of their car, they take cover in a ditch and they just open fire on an officer that was standing outside this fire hall. This was an actual RCMP officer. He didn't get hurt. Nobody else got hurt miraculously, but there's no explanation on what was happening and why they just opened fire on this fire hall. People are just panicking. They saw a police guy and they just started shooting. It doesn't make any sense. They're just making the situation worse.

Jennifer: I remember first reading about that and I was so fucking pissed off because the two police officers that opened fire, they didn't even go and check on anybody. They could have shot and killed somebody just thinking that it was Gabriel Wortman. That's so fucked up.

Katie: I know it really is. This is where those people that were being evacuated were being held and these police opened fire on the fucking building. Then they just like, "Oh whoops. Not him, "and take off. What the hell? I don't know.

AJ: I know it's such a shit show I feel on every level. It's just incompetence after incompetence. It's so crazy. That story is just embarrassing. Honestly.

Katie: It really is. It's like they saw this one police officer randomly. Completely panicked and just decided to try and kill him. Can you imagine if they would've killed him? Like Jesus!

AJ: I know. It could have been much worse. They're lucky they didn't kill...

Katie: ...one of the evacuees inside that building. Jesus Christ! It could have been a lot worse. That was totally senseless. Doesn't make any sense still. About 20 minutes after this happens at 10:42 AM, Gabriel is spotted on highway 2 in Brookfield. After hearing this update, Constable Heidi Stevenson, she radios her fellow Constable Morrison, and she tells him that she is going to meet him at the checkpoint where he is. Obviously everyone is still on the lookout for Gabriel. They have got this info that he's on highway 2 in their area so she's ready to meet Morrison out there to try and get him. Officer Morrison, he sees an RCMP vehicle traveling towards him and Morrison radios Heidi asking if that's her coming towards him and Heidi Stevenson confirms that yes, it's her because she's traveling towards him. It turns out that actually Gabriel, who happened to be traveling the same way is a little bit ahead of her. He pulls up to Morrison and he just starts shooting at him through the window. Morrison is actually able to escape. Even though he's shot, he's able to drive himself out of the situation, but Stevenson encounters Gabriel on the road. Gabriel actually has one of those things that police put on the front of their grills so that they can ram people so it protects them from people trying to ram them. The standard sedan, RCMP vehicles don't have that, but his actually did have it so he equipped his with that, Gabriel did and so he was able to ram Stevenson's vehicle and push her off the road. She shoots at him multiple times, but he shoots back and unfortunately kills her and he gets out of the car and gets her gun away from her. Seeing the accident between two police cars, a good Samaritan named Joey Weber pulls over to try and see if he can help. He ends up being shot and killed by Gabriel as well. Gabriel had put him in the back of his police car ,kills him, and then he sets the police car on fire with Joey in the back. It's just escalating and escalating as we go on. Now with his police car on fire Gabriel steals Joey's car. Now he's in a different vehicle than he started out in and now it's 11:06 AM and the police update Twitter with the new vehicle information. They figure out what has happened pretty quickly. They say that he was coming from Brookfield, but that's actually wrong. He was actually headed in the opposite direction. Instead of heading out of Brookfield, he was heading to Shubenacadie, which is the opposite way on the highway. He arrived at a woman named Gina Goulet's house and she knew Gabriel. She was another denturist in the area. She was scared. She knew what was happening and felt that maybe he was going to come and see her. She had called her family to come to her house and be with her. She was afraid that he was going to come to her house and she was right. Gabriel gets there before her family gets there. He breaks in and chases her around her house and actually kills her before her family shows up. He changes his clothes at this point so he's not in his police uniform anymore. He's in civilian clothes and he steals her car. Now he's in a different car. Gina's family does show up a little bit after Gabriel has left and they called 911 again. They're still on his trail, a little bit closer, but they've still missed him again. At this point he's in Gina's car and her car hardly has any gas and so it's speculated that Gabriel was on his way to Halifax, he wasn't going to make it in that car so he had to pull over and get some gas somewhere. He pulls into a gas station in Elmsdale, and there just happens to be a police vehicle in the spot beside him getting gas as well. They're just watching him struggle because he pulls into the gas station spot on the wrong side, where the actual gas tank is. So he tries to pull the pump all the way around or on top of his car to the other side, to try and get the gas pump in. It doesn't reach and he gets frustrated, just puts the gas pump back and drives away. Then he goes to the next gas station, which is the Big Stop gas station in Enfield. He arrives there at 11:26 AM and I mean, somebody was being vigilant. I feel like the police saw him, figured out who he was and maybe warned the police up the road or something because when he pulls into that gas station almost immediately, a police vehicle pulls up right beside him and they don't waste any time. They get out of the car, they open fire on Gabriel. He is shot multiple times. He's probably dead at this point, but they pull him out of the car, they handcuff him while he's dead on the ground and they just let him bleed out on the pavement. He's dead. That's the end of it. The police do another tweet and they say that Gabriel has been caught. That's the end of his rampage. All in all, there was 22 people in total that were killed. 3 others were injured. One of the women was pregnant. Her unborn baby was killed as well. All this happened throughout 13 hours. That's the end. Scary. There's still so many questions about why this was such a shit show. Any final thoughts?

AJ: It's just so crazy. It's very unusual. A mass shooting normally would happen in one location most of the time. Right? This one he literally drove throughout the province in different little communities and shot people throughout. It's wild! He really caught them with their pants down. They really didn't know they weren't equipped. He probably knew that and he just was able to escape while they were all trying to figure out what to do. The fact that they were outmatched by one person when they had multiple people, you know, it's really sad.

Stephanie: He's pretty brazen to go and stop for gas. That gas station is pretty busy. It's one of the busier ones on that highway. For him to stop to get gas is pretty brazen of him knowing what he had just done.

AJ: I feel like he had no choice.

Stephanie: Well, I guess, yeah.

AJ: He had no gas.

Stephanie: True.

Katie: Luckily they were fucking paying attention finally and caught him. I'm thinking, all the people he attacked were all very personal. It was his neighbors in that community that he knew. He could have very easily gone to a busier city. He could have started in Halifax and shot up the streets. Instead, he went to that little town where it was personal to him. It seems like something snapped, but it doesn't really make sense. What happened that made him go over the edge?

AJ: Mm-hmm.

Stephanie: Well, I was thinking if he did get away from the police after getting gas, he was headed towards Halifax. God knows what he could have done when he got there. His mission probably wasn't over. He was probably still going to shoot up anybody he saw on the highway or towards Halifax. Good in a way that he stopped, because God, you never know what could have happened if he kept on going.

Katie: Oh yeah. I feel like he would never have stopped until he got caught.

AJ: Mm-hmm. Wasn't his plan to go to his denturist office and burn it down? Wasn't that, or maybe that hasn't been confirmed?

Katie: Maybe that makes sense, I guess. He was headed that way.

Stephanie: That's right downtown Dartmouth. Right smack dab in the middle of Dartmouth. A lot of damage could have been done if that's where he was headed to.

AJ: Obviously, it seems that he had been planning something like this, because he did collect the RCMP vehicles. It's like he was doing it for this reason? Or he was collecting them and he was, you know, enamored with the RCMP, and then it was an afterthought, like, "Oh,, I can use this to go undetected." I think that it really was sort of this intricate thing where he thought, "Ok, I'm going to do this just for this sole purpose. I can't really decide if maybe, you know, he was just collecting them because he liked them. Which is still weird.

Katie: I don't know. I feel like maybe he didn't care, but I mean, I'm sure it's completely illegal to have a replica RCMP car that you've made yourself just sitting on your property. I feel like he wasn't just going to make it to have it. He would've got in trouble. It would've got taken away if he got found out. I think he made it so that he could get away with something.

AJ: He obviously did have the guns and the firearms to be able to do it too. It just seemed like he knew where their weak spots would be, how he could escape undetected and how all of that happened. I just feel like it's not just a spur of the moment he was in a rage and then he thought to do this. I feel like maybe he had planned to do something like this just didn't know necessarily when, but then when he got in that violent rage, it's like, "Ok, this is the time." I don't know. It just seems like the RCMP did screw up a lot so maybe they screwed up so much that it made it look like he had a plan, but really they just made it very easy for him to be able to do it.

Katie: Maybe. I feel like he did have a plan. It's not like he hit every single house on the way. He skipped some and went to certain houses of people that knew him. He definitely had something to prove to these people. I don't know whether he was mad or he just lost it. I don't know if we will ever know how long he was planning or what his actual motivations were.

AJ: It seems like it took very little for him to actually go off the deep end. I mean that little comment by that person, that friend he was chatting with from Maine or the argument that he had with Lisa about that. Obviously it was building up to that because that doesn't seem like a significant argument, you know? It was just crazy. Obviously he was at the brink already.

Katie: It's like I was saying that's when COVID was first hitting, so maybe something was going on with that because reportedly he was stocking up on gas. Maybe that was just so we could light all these houses on fire, but it seemed like he was stocking up on gas when COVID hit, he would need it. He stocked up on rice and staples and stuff. Maybe he was just worried about the pandemic, like actually worried about it and that was a stressor as well. Maybe because the businesses were shutting down.

Jennifer: It could have been because, at the beginning of the pandemic all non-emergency services like dentist office s all got shut down. I'm guessing that he would've been forced to close his denture office and he probably, I don't know that may have pissed him off. It could have been some other sort of underlying issues, you know?

AJ: Yeah, that's true. I did read a few articles saying that people had said that he was very stressed or anxious about COVID and that could have been something that just added on to his stress. It's like he was already at the brink and then COVID just pushed him over the edge. It was April of 2020, right? So literally things had just closed a couple of weeks before, you know, in mid-March so, or maybe a month before. It was really at the beginning when everything was uncertain.

Katie: Maybe he was stressed about that. Like I was saying before, he really didn't have a lot of friends. He was this weird guy. Maybe that comment when that person, you know, said don't commit to him and run, basically he was thinking maybe he was going to lose the only real friend that he actually had, his partner so that put him over the edge. That seems plausible as well. Obviously nothing justifies what happened and nothing can explain it to be like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." Nothing makes sense in this situation.

AJ: Yeah. Like I said, there's probably things that were adding up all at once that just pushed him over the edge. He did have violent tendencies before from the articles I read, stuff about the inquiry that came out. It's not like he wasn't known to be a violent person in the past. He was somebody that had that tendency. I guess all of this just all added together to push him to this. Which is crazy! Now that we have the timeline, this is where we're going to end part one. In part two, we're going to continue our conversation. Talk a bit about the inquiry into the RCMP that resulted from this. We'll get a bit into that in part two. Thank you so much for listening to part one. We hope you are enjoying our discussion of this case. Part two is going to be coming out today as well. Keep on listening and we'll see you in part two. So thank you for listening so far and take care.