S03E09: THE CHILDREN OF GOD (CULT MINISERIES, PART I)

Coming up on this episode of "Crime Family". 

AJ: Nobody joins a cult. Everyone joins a good thing. 

Katie: You can see this when you watch some of the documentaries about it. There's children, they're singing and they're playing and they're holding hands and smiling and they're dancing on the beach. So that kind of thing. And that's what they use to bring people into this group. They saw this outside facade of just like this happy singing, joyful life. But Christina describes a very disturbing reality on the inside. 

Stephanie: And after he left the cult, he became very angry and sought revenge, especially on his mother. Like he wanted revenge on his mother.

Katie: It's like, you're going to go to hell or the end of days cult, so you're not going with everybody else when the world ends, if you act out against them. So they scare people as well. It's that mind control that's kind of unbelievable.

AJ: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of "Crime Family". I'm your cohost AJ as always and I'm here with my sisters, Stephanie and Katie. And this week is the first of a four part mini series. So as you know, if you've been listening to us for a while, we did a mini series last season on missing and murdered indigenous women. And all of our listeners really enjoyed it. And it was really good to be able to like take one sort of topic and develop it over a series of episodes. So we really were happy with how that turned out and we just wanted to do it again. So we decided to do a mini series this season, but it's going to be on a different topic this time. And we decided that we are going to delve into cults. If you're like us, you probably find cults super fascinating, but also very confusing. And there's just like so much psychology involved in it. And they're just like really fascinating things that exist. And we just thought it'd be interesting to kind of do our mini series this season on that topic. So the three of us each kind of took a different cult. So the first three episodes it's going to be each of us sort of talking about the cult that we've researched. And then the fourth part is going to be a larger cult that took a lot of research and was really big and pretty well known. So we decided to kind of all take on that one together. So although we do realize that some of these are probably huge cults and have a lot of information, like there's an entire podcast series, just about one cult or like it's a full 10 part documentary on one cult, so we couldn't possibly, like, we're not going to do 10 episodes on every single cult. So we're just going to do our best to like give you kind of an, an overview of each cult in the episode. And obviously we're going to discuss it as we go, but yeah, just kind of wanted to preface it that it's not going to be like super down every rabbit hole and like touch on every single detail. Just kind of the details we felt were most necessary to tell the story that we wanted to tell.

So the first part is going to be on a cult that Steph looked into and was really interested in letting us know about. So Steph, tell us what the cult is. 

Stephanie: The cult I'm going to be doing today. It's called the "Children of God" or what it's known for today as the "Family International". Because I'm so fascinated with cults and stuff, I'm also very fascinated with the psychology and the philosophy behind the cults and what their deeper meanings really mean. When I was looking up this cult, I found an interesting statement from a psychologist. His name is Steven Eichel and he was a recognized international cult expert, and he was the president of the International Cultic Studies Association. And he says that there are still about 10,000 cults left in the United States. And when I read that, I was like, that is a lot. I don't know that many cults, but I didn't know there was that many out there. That just seems like a lot to me just in the United States alone. 

AJ: Yeah. Like I could probably name like 10 off the top of my head, like the big ones that everyone knows, so the fact that there's 10,000, like that's crazy. And then when you think of like how many members are in each cult that could be like over a million people in the U S that are a part of a cult, which is crazy to think. That's like a huge number.

Stephanie: That shocked me when I found that out, I was like, that's crazy. Before I get into like the details and the case itself, I am going to do a little bit of back history on David Berg, who was a founder of the "Children of God" to just get you a little bit of insight about his, his upbringing and what his life was like, and just so you can get an understanding of why he was the way he was or why he developed this cult and later on through the episode, you'll see how unfortunate this cult is for a lot of members. 

AJ: Well, I mean, every cult is unfortunate for its members just by the nature of it, but...

Stephanie: Yeah true. 

AJ: But it also depends. Yeah. I'm trying to think too, like when you said 10,000 cults it's also depending, like what are they considering a cult? There's that whole debate, I know I listened to a few podcasts about cults, but like there's one where it's like multi-level marketing. Some people consider that a cult. There are some cults that involve sort of that, so there's like the thing of like, well, if you're in an MLM, are you also in a cult? So I feel like if you're using that umbrella term, then like there could be a lot that are considered cults. But I think when you think of cults you think of like the most severe cases that we know of, like, you know, the Jonestown, or like the Charles Manson, like that would end in like murder and like all that stuff. Whereas like there might be a little bit of ones that are like kind of culty, but not to the extreme that some of them are. So the actual definition of a cult from the Oxford Dictionary is "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object", or there's a secondary definition of "a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister". So those are the two main definitions, but also that I feel like that's subjective too. 

Katie: There was another definition that I think kind of fits a lot of cults, "a misplaced or excessive admiration of a particular person or thing". So with most cults and this one too, there's always that, the leader that people just feel is the new Messiah or he knows all and so that's why they follow him because they have these weird feelings towards them for that kind of thing. So that's super typical of a cult. 

AJ: Yeah, and I feel like sometimes like cults are sort of mixed in with religion sometimes. Like in those definitions it does say it, like, it's kind of mixed in with like this God like worship of the leader, which we're not going to have that discussion of religion is a cult but that's for another podcast, but... 

Katie: Well no, a lot of them bring religion into it. And that's why I think they manipulate so many people because they're saying God's word and you have to follow him because that's what God wants. So it's, it is very religious and people get roped into it because of that. So yeah. 

AJ: And almost like a shaming, if you don't abide by the, the word of whatever right? It's almost like it's a, it's a reflection of your bad character if you don't abide by this such and such a rule that's outlined by this godlike figure.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. And it's like, you're going to go to hell or the end of days cults, so you're not going with everybody else when the world ends, if you act out against them. So they, you know, they scare people as well into following.

Stephanie: Yeah. That's a good point. We'll get into a lot of that worshiping stuff deeper into this case. And you'll see like how people just get roped in and how they just surround their life in this cult and they think it's the better place to be. 

AJ: It's almost like FOMO too, Fear of Missing Out. You know, you're just kind of hyped up and you don't want to be the one person who like, doesn't get to partake in like the, I dunno, there's some psychological thing there going on.

Stephanie: We'll get into a lot of that during this case, but before we get into that, I'm going to, I want to talk to you about David Berg's background, just so you know, you get a sense of how his family dynamic was just so you can kind of understand where his, his mind was at as he got older. So David Berg's ancestors were German Jews who converted to Christianity in the 1700's, and they left their communities and went to live in Ohio and Pennsylvania, where they became peace loving Mennonites. And David was brought up in a very religious and rebellious family. You was abused a lot as a young child. And when David was just three years old, his babysitter started to molest him and his mother, Virginia caught the babysitter and fired her on the spot. But after that, David Berg's mother didn't really think much of it. She didn't really think how damaging it would be to David. So around the 1930's, David traveled with his mother. His mother did a whole bunch of missionary stuff, so David would travel with his mom all the time and be by her side and he would never really leave her side. And he was so fascinated with his mother's leadership. And David became more curious as most kids do, as he grew up more curious with like, just the idea of sex and because his mother was so, so religious that when he would like masturbate, he would do it seek obviously secretly. No, but like when they were like in hotel rooms or like when they were at like truck stops, cause his mother traveled a lot, he would just go off on his own and you know... 

Katie: That's a good thing. 

AJ: Yeah. It'd be very, I'd be very concerned if it was the other way around, but yeah.

Katie: Obviously when you're growing up, you're like sexually curious and teenage boys do what they do. But when his mother would catch him doing things like that, she would call him out and she would embarrass him and kind of shame him for exploring his sexuality as a teenager. And so it became kind of this like embarrassing degrading kind of aspect of his life, where really it should just be part of growing up. So I think that's kind of where a lot of his thoughts about sex were kind of twisted because his mother did those kinds of things to him when he was a teenager. 

AJ: And also how could they not be? I mean, when he's molested at that young age, that's going to cause sort of a skewed idea of sex and sexuality, I feel. Unless you're addressing it in therapy at an appropriate time, but I'm getting the sense that that was not happening. 

Katie: Yeah. It seems like very mixed up. Like when he was a young kid, this happened to him. So he's thinking that's what adults do, it's normal, but it's actually not. And then when he tries to explore that himself, you know, his mother's like this is awful, you know, your evil for doing things like that. So he definitely just didn't have any way to cope with those kinds of feelings. 

Stephanie: When he was growing up, he, just saw himself as misunderstood and he became very obsessed with sex itself. David started to distrust authority and when he graduated from high school, his parents spoke with their evangelistic folk group that they were a part of. They wanted David to be put into this group to like try and, I wouldn't say get him some help, but try to give him some work and keep his life busy. And they try to help him because his parents thought he was a little bit troubled. So they try to get David hired full time in their ministry, but this only lasted a few years and he got fired because they thought that he was sleeping with the 17 year old church employee at the time. And for David, that he seemed to have the control for once, like during like this whole time, like, it was kind of like the secret that he was sleeping with employees. So it really made him excited because his whole entire life up until that point, he was never, never in control of any situation. And so when he got fired, it just kind of brought him down. He started to distance himself from his Christian work. And you went back to school to study philosophy and socialism. And this is where he became obsessed with sex and all of its facets. Like you got deeper and deeper into the...

AJ: What does socialism have to do with that? I'm not saying anything bad, but I'm just saying it's weird. Like he studied socialism, so he's obsessed with sex. Like, I feel like it was, it's a weird... 

Katie: Maybe it was just his minor.

Stephanie: Yeah, it could have been, but the university is kind of where he started off his like sexual obsession. So you'll get a sense of not, not a sense that you'll get the full picture of that throughout this whole entire case. 

Katie: So in 1969, David founded the "Children of God" and it started out as kind of a fundamentalist type Christian group, and like Steph said, he had studied socialism and philosophy and he was interested in studying communism and things like that, just kind of how society works, different societies, and he also had aspirations to become a minister, but when he failed at that, he decided that he was just going to start his own Christian group so that he could be the leader. And he particularly targeted youth to be a part of this Christian group. And the "Children of God", went by multiple names throughout the years. It started out as the "Children of God", and it's still, I think, mostly known for being called the "Children of God", a lot of documentaries and things still call it the "Children of God", but it changed its name to the "Family of Love", and then it changed to just the "Family", and then finally it changed to the "Family International" in 2004 and that's still its name today. And David himself also went by multiple names. He told his followers to call him Moses David, Father David ,dad, or grandpa. And so some of the original members would call him dad and then their kids would call him grandpa. So like a lot of cults, this one started out with good intentions to help the world, and in this case to empower youth, to get them involved in something positive. According to Christina Babin, who was interviewed on the podcast called "Trust Me", it started as a group that was kind of against capitalism, it was rebelling against traditional Christianity, but in kind of a pure way, whatever that means. And she says that they use music and what she calls love bombing with the promise of consistent happiness to promote the group. And you can see this when you watch some of the documentaries about it, there's children, they're singing and they're playing and they're holding hands and smiling and they're dancing on the beach. So that kind of thing. And that's what they use to bring people into this group. They saw this outside facade of just like this happy singing, joyful life, but Christina describes a very disturbing reality on the inside. She says that her family got involved when she was just a child and her parents were going through a divorce and it was her mother that decided to take her kids and herself into this group. And just a side note, she says that her father and her grandparents, once her mother tried to get them into this cult, that they actually took them to court. They took her mother and the cult to court for custody because you know, their father didn't want them raised in this kind of world, but the courts actually sided with the cult. And so the kids, you know, this poor father lost his kids to this group. And those kids didn't really have a chance. Didn't have a choice to grow up in a normal life. So this was all back in the 70's, 60's, early 70's. So once Christina was in the group, she says that her mother kind of gets put into an arranged marriage pretty quickly and the kids are all taken away, kind of kidnapped almost. And they're shuttled off to various places overseas throughout their entire childhood, they're just traveling around the world with different commune groups. And in 1972, she describes something called the great escape. And David said everyone needed to leave America and so all the different groups that were scattered around America just packed up and they left to go overseas. And once everyone is in this foreign country, they don't know the language, they don't know anybody else except for each other. That's when there was this shift from this happy idealic hippy commune vibe to a sinister focus on control and sex. And soon after they all moved, came this is other movement called the "One Wife" idea, and it was the idea that everyone was just one big family. Everybody was kind of married to each other. Everyone was your mother and father and all the kids were siblings basically. But this kind of led down a different path and led to kind of the swinger culture where everyone was sharing wives and the women would just kind of be passed around and the kids would too on these sharing schedules. So the men would kind of have their pick of the group, basically. 

Stephanie: So David himself was barely seen by any of the members of the cult and for them to communicate with him, they sent him videos of how things were going, so he could essentially keep tabs on everyone. When he communicated with his members, he would often send out letters as his form of communication. And these, these letters were called Mo letters, which stood for Moses David and these letters were given out to his followers and with instructions that they had to follow. Some were prophecies of the end of the world, and he referred to them as end time writing, which depicted the end of the world when Jesus would come back to earth, which was supposed to happen in 1993. Some of these letters were written in the form of a "Dear Abby" letter. These letters were weird and according to a Netflix documentary called "The Children of God", they were a mix of comic book style pictures, and religious messages. But in a more twisted way, these letters would often have illustrations that were pornographic, and some of the messages told women that they needed to share themselves with other men in the group, whether they wanted to or not. And if they didn't, they would be labeled as selfish and unloving and uncaring. And according to X family.org, Berg had written over 3000 letters in his lifetime. There were many groups that were spread across the world, essentially, so David could obviously not be keeping watch over everyone. He was still able to maintain control because he had leaders in all of the groups that enforced the rules and would report back to him. It was described as kind of a pyramid scheme of leadership and power with most members being on the bottom and likely feeling as though they could work their way up the more they obeyed David. 

AJ: So I was telling you there's a connection of the multi-level marketing. Like that's the thing. I feel like a lot of cults have that sort of pyramid schemey sort of vibe .Like I've, I mean, the few that I do know have that similar thing. So I feel like that's a common occurrence.

Stephanie: So like many other cults, the "Children of God", had its own set of rules that the members had to abide by. And for this cult, David controlled every member, every minute of their lives, even the amount of toilet paper that each member was allow to use, which was only like three squares. And if they use more, they were accused of wasting the Lord's money. You can only have two cups of coffee or tea and if you had more, you would be walking in disobedience.

AJ: I'd be out, I'd be out right there. 

Stephanie: You were never allowed to go out alone. They always had to be with a partner. And the letters also described how everyone was supposed to dress and everyone was following these instructions exactly the way they were told. Once the "Children of God" became the "Family International" cult, they developed this term called Flirty Fishing in 1974, which was the radical plan that David came up with. Flirty Fishing was going to be the ultimate way to win the soul of Christ. 

Katie: Yeah. So the whole point of Flirty Fishing was to try and recruit people because David had them believing that the end of the world was coming and that they needed to recruit as many people as possible to save them when the world was ending. And so this was basically just a prostitution ring that was trying to save people from the end of times. And so it really was these women going out to any, anywhere they could find men and doing whatever they wanted basically, and the men would pay them, and this was kind of like them trying to win over the men so they would come to this group and save them, save their souls. Something more disturbing is that the women were not allowed to have other jobs. So this was the only way that they could contribute financially was by this Flirty Fishing. And they weren't allowed to wear makeup or perfume in their everyday lives and they were only allowed to do those kinds of things when they were going out to fish. And, and so all the little girls in the group would look up to them and aspire to be like them so that they could grow up, they could wear makeup, get dressed up and be fancy, so they go out Flirty Fishing too. So it really does have this sad, twisted reality for those girls, if that's kind of what they're aspiring to be, because that's basically all, a lot of them know. And so, like I mentioned before, Christina Babin recalls that they were constantly on the run, this group, they were in foreign countries and they would run from the authorities going from country to country. And she says that she thinks even Interpol at one point had put out a reward for anyone that could give them information that led to the capture of David. So what was happening, wasn't going unnoticed. But David was just really good at evading the authorities and the people believed that the government and police and modern society were the enemy. And so that's why he was able to get away with it for so long and he kind of trained his members to follow along with him. And the kids were taught that sexual activity with the adults was the sacrifice that they just had to make. So to basically be a good person, that's what you just had to do. And even though kids and teenagers, they didn't like it and they just felt weird about it they grew up thinking that there was just something wrong with them if they didn't want it, because this was kind of their calling, and so if they didn't want to do it, then that was their problem and they had to kind of deal with it anyway. And so, yeah, they, they kind of grew up thinking that it was an issue with them because they didn't like it. And so that's very disturbing aspect of it as well. So not only do you have the sex abuse going on, but then you have, this can obviously leads to things like we know what's wrong with me, low self esteem, that kind of thing, because they're just not understanding what's what's going on and why they're expected to like these kinds of things. And also they would practice things like mock raids so the adults would pretend to be police and the kids were coached on what to say and how to answer questions. And when they actually did get raided, a lot of the communes got raided around the world and all the kids, when they were questioned by the authorities, they seemed very happy, happy with their life. They were very stress-free. They had nothing bad to say. And so the people that were questioning them kind of got the idea that maybe it really wasn't as bad as everyone was saying it is. Like they thought maybe what was going on in there was just kind of rumors in the public, despite everything that the outside world thought they knew about the cults these kids and these adults were trained so well that they shed doubts on the authorities. And I think that even after they did get raided they kind of let them go because they thought that they might've been exaggerating some of the problems. 

AJ: I was just thinking like, definitely started noticing some themes, like from the cults that I, the few cults that I do know quite well, or are aware of, it's like similar themes. It seems like very deeply misogynistic stuff that the stuff you were saying about the women who like weren't allowed to have other jobs, and like, it seems like, and that's honestly a common theme I see a lot in the cults. It's like very misogynistic towards the women and yeah, I don't know. It's just crazy. It's like something, one person could be so manipulative and, and it's also too, it's like, you think like, well, how can somebody follow these, this person? But like, if you're trained and conditioned to think that everyone on the outside is the enemy, then like, obviously you're not going to listen to a word that anyone on the outside says, and you're only listening to this leader who's telling you that everything's all good. And that you guys, you know, you're doing stuff for the greater good. So it's definitely like not to, not to like hard to see how that could, how somebody could be conditioned to think that. 

Katie: Yeah. And especially when you grow up and that's everything you've known from a kid, you just think that's how life is, right? Just imagine the life you have now. Just imagine if someone came in and said, like, that's not what reality is, but that's been your life. Like, there's no way we would think that our life isn't the reality. You know what I mean? So like, just think of how hard it would be for someone to believe that.

AJ: Yeah. And of course, you're going to think like, oh, this, this crazy person is telling me this person came up to me and said that I'm, my life is a lie. Like, obviously I'm not gonna believe this person who I don't know. Right? So obviously you're going to go with what you know, and what you're comfortable with. It's kind of like the Truman show. You know that movie. 

Katie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, you're going to mistrust everybody who's not a part of your group. So it's, it's when you think about it, that way, how easy it is to, you know, just kind of stay there. 

AJ: And I think it's, especially, like you were saying with kids who grew up like that, I think it's a little bit different and we'll probably get into it in different cults, but it's like when grown adults can join a cult, it's like, when they do know like the real world, but they still become susceptible to falling into these cults, even though they know like, obviously you can, you can clearly see how like, somebody who's grown up in a cult knows, thinks that that's reality. So obviously they're going to believe it. But like, when you think of like how grown adults can also be kind of coerced into these groups when they do know what real life is like, you know, it's just crazy. 

Katie: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why it's important for a lot of these groups, especially this one to have that outside view of, "Oh, we're great. Everybody loves each other. It's just like this one big happy family" and they make it sound like something that you would want to be a part of. But then once you get in there, you're stuck. And yeah. So for adults who fall for it, that's just shows you how manipulative these leaders are. And it's just, it always fascinates me that he wasn't even like in these groups, like physically telling people what to do. He's writing them letters and they've listened to him so the set mind controls is kind of unbelievable. 

AJ: Yeah. Well, and isn't there a saying, I feel like there's a saying that says, like nobody joins a cult, everyone joins a good thing. You know, they joined something that looks very legitimate. Obviously if it's presenting itself as a very creepy and a cult no one's going to join it.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. And when we get into a little bit more, they kind of talk about their attempts to cover it up. And I mean, if, but if you're presenting to the world, this happy thing that isn't real, like, you obviously know something's wrong. If you're trying to pretend it's something different to other people. Right? So it's kind of hard to be like, well, this is what we're presenting it as, but it's not that, so why. Right? You think like that kind of thing. 

AJ: Yeah. Well, and that's why I think cults are so fascinating because like, as much as we're going to do this, four-part mini series and we're going to be so like exhausted and looked into so many different cults, but it's like, as much as we're going to do that, we can never understand what it's like, because we are not in a cult, right? So I think it's also too, it's also important to say that like, you know, this is our outside perspective, having never been in a cult when, you know, we can't know what kind of goes in to the mindset. 

Stephanie: You bring up a good point, because my next, what I'm going to talk about goes into like two former cult members and their perspective and how they got out. And so you kind of can picture it in your mind of how it was like, and...

AJ: I feel like three of us, I would consider us empathetic people. Like we can, you know, be empathetic with people and put ourselves in other people's positions. But like, it's still not the same. There's only so much that we can know and there's only so much that we can understand having never been in a cult. So while we can be sympathetic or empathetic, we still we've never been in it. 

Katie: Obviously we're not judging or blaming them for being in a cult. Right? Cause you think, oh, that would never happen to me. But everybody says that and it does happen to a lot of people. So... 

AJ: When you think about how many people are brainwashed, like if there's 10, 10,000 cults and how many people are been brainwashed who were in those cults? You know what I mean? Like, obviously it's a real thing that can happen. So yeah, like we can acknowledge that it does happen even though we can't really understand how you could fall for it or not even fall for it, cause I feel like fall for it sounds negative, be susceptible to that. 

Katie: Yeah exactly.

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Stephanie: I'm going to talk a little bit about two documentaries that I watched. So when I was researching this cult, I watched a lot of different documentaries. But there were two that I watched that I really liked. So I'm kind of going to go into, into depth about those two and kind of get a like first person perspective on what it was like in the cult. The first one I watched was a documentary on Netflix called "Children of God". And the second one I watched was a documentary called "Children of God Lost and Found", and that one you can watch on crave HBO. And both of these films were made in first person of former members that had gotten out of the cult, and now they're talking about it. So the first one I'm going to be talking about is the Netflix documentary. This one was about a mother named Sylvia and her two daughters who were telling the stories and about their experience in the cult. So I'm just going to talk about one incident that happened in the documentary, as Sylvia was telling it. Sylvia was a mother of seven children. She describes like in the documentary that she never wanted that many children. And because she was living in this cult, she had no choice. Obviously she was kind of forced to have as many children as she could. 

Katie: Birth control was not allowed in the cult, so even if they wanted to go that route, they wouldn't be allowed to.

Stephanie: Yes, that's a good point. So yeah. So Sylvia describes one incident that one of her daughters had Lupus at the age of 15, which is an auto-immune disease. So if she would go in this hot sun, it would flare up her symptoms of Lupus. So Sylvia's daughter would always stay in and read books and because she couldn't go outside, so it's all she ever did was read. But according to David, books were a waste of time and not encouraged as well as their education. Like they weren't encouraged to be educated, what Sylvia was saying in the, in this documentary. And also in the cult, it was frowned upon to take medicine. So for Sylvia's daughter, this was very devastating, according to Sylvia, because she required to take medicine for her illness, but her mother would often let her daughter take the medicine. But when she did, she felt extremely guilty to the point where the daughter just eventually stopped taking it because she just couldn't face the fact that she was disobeying David and disobeying the rules of the, of the cult. So she just stopped taking it. 

Katie: Yeah. And I think another thing to point out, cause I watched the documentary as well. So her taking that medicine made her daughter kind of feel weak and that God didn't love her as much because she had to take this medicine and she was sick and she was made to feel like God was punishing her. So it was kind of that thing. She was sick, but she was also kind of being bullied in a way because she was sick.

Stephanie: Yeah, which is really sad to think of. Like she wants to feel better, but yet she feels guilty for feeling better. But she also feels guilty... 

AJ: So she's supposed to just feel sick for the rest of her life then? 

Stephanie: Yeah. 

AJ: That's crazy. 

Katie: Yeah. Well, I think the idea was that she's, God's punishing her. That's why he made her sick. So if she's just a better person, he'll heal her. So it was kind of that mentality. But if you're taking medicine, you're going against God, so it's not really not helping in the long run. So she does eventually come off her Lupus medication.

Stephanie: Because she came off of, of the medication in 1982, she was unconscious for three days, and then she ended up dying right in front of her sisters. And Sylvia describes this as devastating to herself and to her other children. Sylvia explains in the documentary that no one, like no one even came to pray for her. No one even came to like give her condolences. No one came to like, make sure she was okay because to them it was an embarrassment to the group because she was ill. So just to like, not even accept the fact that she was even ill, that they didn't even like, say they're sorry. Like, it was just really devastating Sylvia said for, for her, but mostly for her children to watch her daughter, their sister die because nobody cared and not even after she died, nobody cared to say, you know, hope you're okay, like most people would do, like if you're a sympathetic person, who would have any empathy, you would show your condolences to the family. 

Katie: Her death was seen as an embarrassment and like a weakness for her family and more as if, you know, more than just an actual sickness and so she died and it was kind of embarrassing. So that's kind of the mentality that people just had in the group.

AJ: But it's like a moral failing on your part. If you get sick. 

Katie: It is. They must have thought like, "What did this family do for God to hate them so much that one of their kids died". So it's, you know, their fault for not being as good as they could be.

Stephanie: In this documentary as well, the women and children were forced to do videos at a very young age. They were forced to strip in front of the camera and they would often strip while young children were in the room. The children were subjected to sex at a very young age. Some of the children were sexually abused at the age of seven. And a lot of the women would sleep together with their partners, naked in one, like it showed in the picture, like it showed pictures of like the mattresses, like laid out in this big room and they would all have to sleep together with their partners, but naked in this like big bed of mattresses all together. Like that's how they would sleep. 

Katie: Yeah. And a super weird, in these videos, like the women would be naked and they, it was like a video to David and then they would be like, " we love you to David. We wish you were here. Next time we see we want to give you a kiss". Things like that, like super gross and oh, and like, all these women were like super happy in the bed and it was just it's, it was weird. 

AJ: Also, all of these leaders, it's like extreme narcissism, the worst kind of narcissism when it's like, well, I mean, not that there's a good kind of narcissism, but like, just like when they take it to the extreme and like they never get called out for it or nothing, no intervention happens. It's like, that's what can happen? 

Katie: I know. 

Stephanie: So the second documentary that I watched was the "Children of God, Lost and Found". The documentary is told from a first person perspective of what it was like growing up in the cult. Karen Zerby, who is David Berg's wife had a son named Noah and Noah is the one who made this documentary, the "Children of God, Lost and Found". And when Noah was making this documentary, he made it because he wanted to tell his story about getting out of the cult with his brothers. So during this documentary Noah travels, and he's trying to meet up with Cult X members, and he has like a list of these people, and they're all like, very interested in talking to him and they want to talk about their experience. But once he starts calling them for interviews, they all start not wanting to do it anymore, like they just all of a sudden just don't want to talk about it. Don't want anything to do with it. He had to stop for a period of time because he got really depressed and just all the thoughts coming back from him being in the cult were just getting to him. So he had to put the documentary on hold and just work on his mental health. But when he started working on it again, he wanted to interview his mother Karen, so he decides to ask his mom a few questions if she wants to talk about the cult, and she basically says like," I don't want to talk about the cult, like you left." she's still in the cult to this day. And because he got out of it and was interviewing her, interviewing people about the cult then he was kind of of putting a negative spin on what the cult was she just...

AJ: Yeah. Well, I wouldn't say it's a negative spin. It's just negative. 

Katie: No, I was just going to say that. Tell them the truth about the cult.

AJ: Yeah, it's not a spin. That's, so sad though. Like the fact that she's still in it. I'm surprised she's even allowed to talk to him at all, or that she even talked to him at all. Like you think that she would just not answer his phone calls instead. You know, did she actually, did he actually make contact with her and she said, "I can't talk to you" versus, or he, she... 

Stephanie: In" the video he is talking to her, like in the documentary, she is, he is talking to her, but for a very brief moment. And like, she just says, like, I don't, I don't want anything to do with this documentary and I don't want to talk to you". And then he doesn't like hear from his mom for like several days. That puts him, him into like a deep depression, because she, he thinks that something happened to her because she was really angry. She didn't want him to do this documentary, but she also didn't want him be calling her about it. And so when she hung up the phone, Noah was just very, like, you can see in the documentary, if you watch it, like, he's just scared that something happened to her. And he wanted to like, meet up with her and talk to her about it. And like, she didn't want anything to do with that. Obviously she didn't want to be like, seen with him because he was out of the cult and whatnot. So she calls and says," I'm sorry, I can't talk to you. I don't want anything to do with this documentary. I don't want anything. I don't want people getting the wrong idea about this cult." Like she was making him feel like what he was trying to do was bad and that he was saying all these bad things about the cult. 

Katie: She probably never used the word cult. I don't want you to say bad things about this cult and also just to clarify, like Karen is now the new leader, so she can probably bend the rules, talk to her son who's out of it. So just that's probably important to state. 

Stephanie: Karen also had another son. His name was Ricky Rodriguez. He got out of the cult, but he had a more disturbing, like after he got out of the cult, he was more disturbed from being in the cult from the memories. He, had a mental breakdown and kind of went downhill after being in the cult. So Ricky left the cult in 1999. And after he left the cult he became very angry and sought revenge on those who hurt him, especially his mother. Like he wanted revenge on his mother for bringing him up in this cult. But he couldn't track down his mother at the time. So instead he tracked down one of his nannies that he had while he was in the cult. And there's a YouTube clip that they show in the documentary about, of him talking about killing people and talk like sharpening his knives as he's talking to the camera, it's really creepy. Like you kind of feel bad for him. He's so angry at what went on in the cult and how he was treated. Getting out of the cult, he just couldn't come to grips with what had happened to him.

AJ: I also feel like that's not a healthy, obviously attitude either. Like, you know, you get out of the cult, I feel like at some point when you get out of the call and again, this is just easy, easier said then done from someone who's never been in one. But like, I feel like where you blur this line between, like, when are you guilty of committing these crimes versus when are you also the victim too? Because like, everyone who's in the call is just in it because they think that they're doing God's work or they think that they're doing, you know, saving the world or that they're doing these great things. So it's like, they're doing it. They think that they're doing a good thing, but they're doing all this horrible stuff versus like somebody who's knows it's bad and is doing it anyway, which I feel like is like the intent when you're actually the bad person, versus like when you're doing it, because you think it's right. You know what I mean? Like you're doing it with noble intentions, even though it's heinous. Now I'm not saying that it's good to do. Obviously I'm not making excuses for that, but I feel like that's also too, it's a blurred line because it's like, so I feel like at some point, if you get out of the cult too it's like, well, you have to realize that these people were also victims and are under the spell and are also doing things that he himself may have done to other people. You know what I mean? So I feel like you can't really be out in like, you're so angry at all these people, because it's like, you were also in their shoes at one time, but also I don't want to make it sound like I'm making excuses for them. 

Katie: But I can also see why he'd be angry at kind of the life that they made him believe. And it was because of them that he did all those things. And if it wasn't for them, he would never have been in that situation. When I was listening to the podcast called "Trust Me", you know, they, they brought up a good point, saying it takes people usually a long time to come to terms with their feelings when they leave the cult. Just the fact that yes, they did some of these things. So kind of to admit that to themselves and to everybody else is kind of something that can take years and decades and admitting that what they believed for like 30 years is a lie, like overcoming that. And once you finally realize what these people did to you for decades would make you angry I feel. So I feel like it's just how you deal with those once you realize what happened. 

AJ: Yeah. And I'm not like, and I understand that obviously, like he's human, everyone's human. Like you're obviously going to be angry. I'm not saying that like, I would deal with it any better. Like, I would probably be worse, like, who knows? But like I get, like, it was just objectively from someone who can never been in a cult, I'm just saying, like, it was just interesting to think about sort of where that line is and then we'll get into it when we talk more about in the fourth part. When we talk about that cult that we're going to talk about in the fourth part. It's like certain people who were like charged and stuff, it's like, well, at what point were they, like yes, they're guilty of all these things, but they're not, I dunno, you're not, you're not consenting to something when you're brainwashed, you know what I mean? Like how can you say that somebody is guilty of like, consenting to do these horrible things when like they're not even aware that they're doing horrible things. Like you know what I mean 

Katie: I know, but then also you think, like adults that have lived lives outside of the cult and they come in and then start abusing kids. I think like, it would take a long time for them to feel like that was okay. You know what I mean? Like, by having to be in there for like 50 years to be like, okay, actually, maybe this is okay. You know what I mean? 

AJ: Yeah, that's true. 

Katie: So I feel like people doing that, it's hard for me to be like, oh, they were brainwashed right away. And then they started abusing kids. So... 

AJ: Because they lived a life outside that wasn't brainwashed. So they'd know. 

Katie: Yeah. 

AJ: But we were also talking before about like brainwashing is a thing and it's so, so dangerous because it can happen to everyone. So it's like, obviously it was a really powerful brainwash. I dunno. Like it's so I feel like it's so hard because, and I'm not trying to, like, I'm just, I'm not just trying to say that, like all these people who are in cults are doing horrible things, like aren't guilty of doing horrible things. Cause obviously they are like, especially these people who are like doing all these horrible things, they have to be like held accountable for their actions of course. I just think that there is that kind of blurred line. 

Katie: Well, there is that blurred line. It's, there's a difference between think brainwashing to make people believe something and believe in a person that's completely bullshit, but then there's also brainwashing them to do things that should be morally wrong. But it's just so interesting when people, they have this life outside of the cult and then, you know, and they wouldn't dream of doing some of these things and they get in there and somehow they kind of lose all their morality. Like, you know what I mean? So it's interesting that they can just kind of switch off what they used to think was right. And follow the leader. 

AJ: I always get so torn, and like, obviously I keep mentioning like the last cult we're going to talk about like watching those documentaries and stuff. And it's like, so torn because obviously like these people are doing horrible things and you have to say, well, no, they're, they should be held accountable, they're doing horrible things, but brainwashing is not consent to something and like, if you think that you're doing it. I dunno, I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for these people because obviously they're fucked, but there is a level of sort of, obviously they've been manipulated as well, so they wouldn't have otherwise done these things if they hadn't been manipulated by this person necessarily. So...

Katie: Yeah, and it's kind of like coercion, isn't it? It's like, you're basically making them believe something that's not real for them to do what you want them to do. 

AJ: Like, I just feel like it would be a very hard thing to prove, like in court of like, how do you prove that somebody's guilty of something when you can just say, well, they were brainwashed, so they're not actually, you know, consenting to doing these things when they're like under the influence of someone, right? Like isn't it, the term like undue influence or like a victim of undue influence, which is like literally what that is. So, yeah, it's interesting. 

Stephanie: Like I was saying for Ricky Rodriguez, like getting out of the cult it was such a, it didn't bode well for him, like he had, had struggled a lot with his mental health and just struggled with being in the real world. And unfortunately, like he became, like I said, very angry and he wanted revenge on his mother, but because he couldn't track down his mother, he ended up tracking down one of his nannies that he had while he was in the cult, and because he was so angry and so full of revenge that he took her out for dinner, this nanny out for dinner and kind of befriended her, like maybe she thought he wanted to talk about the cult, and because he was her nanny, he knew her him, and maybe he wanted to, she didn't really know what he wanted, so she just kinda just kind of went along with him. So they went out to dinner and then he invited her back to his place and unbeknownst to her, he took her back to his place and then he ended up torturing and killing her by slashing her throat. So it goes to show like just how disturbed he was after leaving the cult. After, Rickie, he then fled from the scene, but he ended up killing himself shortly after that, with a bullet to the head. So it kind of just goes to show, like, because you get out of the cult, doesn't mean your life is now free? Like you still have those demons of what it was like being in the cult. Then it's just unfortunate that he took his anger out on somebody else.

AJ: I feel like I, you see in other cases too, where it's like, they say that it's, in some cases like leaving it as so bad because of all the aftereffects or like, if you're harassed by the organization after it's like, it's almost easier if you just stayed in the cult. But it's like leaving is like a whole new set of struggles comes from leaving and, you know, the easier road would be to just like, do the status quo, like leave the status quo, but would you leave and disrupt like all of that, then it's worse. And then they obviously have the aftereffects and all the trauma and everything. So... 

Katie: Yeah, especially when that's all you know, and you don't know anything about the outside world, so how you supposed to survive out there? That goes back to, I think what we were talking about before and for this cult in particular, I think it's important to kind of note some of the things that went on to make everyone so immersed in kind of that lifestyle that they were in, especially for the kids that were born and grew up in the cult. You know, they were living this indoctrinated way of life. They believe that the outside world was evil and that they could not survive if they left. They had actual things called reprogramming camps where they would completely just brainwash kids. They could only read writings from David and kind of just spent this time getting to reprogram their brain basically. And they were separated from their parents, probably separated from a lot of people that they already knew. And so if anyone even uttered a thought that they were thinking about leaving or thinking about the outside world, they would be severely punished. They called them exorcisms and there would be public ridicule in front of the whole group. They would be put in solitary confinement for months at a time. So people were even afraid to think about leaving. And some who actually did get away were eventually brought back to the communes by even police sometimes because a lot of times they were in foreign countries. They didn't know the language, they didn't know where they were. Their passports had been taken away that didn't have any sort of ID so that their only plan was eventually to go back there. And that's basically all they could do. But like Steph had said earlier, as they were growing up a lot of the kids were denied regular education. They weren't allowed to have books and they weren't even allowed to show that they had any kind of stronger feelings towards one person over another. So you couldn't have, you couldn't call somebody your best friend. You couldn't have romantic feelings or have a love interest for any one person in particular, because that just wasn't allowed. You kind of had to love everybody the same. And kids were very often separated from their parents. They would take the kids and take them across the world to different countries. The parents wouldn't know where they were. Kids wouldn't know where their parents were and some would even go years without even any contact from their parents. So they're completely isolated from their own parents and probably from their siblings and further from some of their friends. So they're completely alone and all they have is really other people in the group they are with. And yeah. So when people did escape, some teenagers did eventually get out. They ended up homeless on the streets and a lot of them died. There were a lot of suicides going on. And so I think that's just kind of like the overview of why it was so hard and impossible for some people to leave.

Stephanie: So, yeah. So the "Family International", which is what it's called today is still actually a cult to this day, but there's a lot of criticism about the cult. A lot of it comes from ex members of the cult and anti cult movements and also the press. The ex members have accused the families leadership of following a policy of lying to the outsiders and being steeped in the history of sexual deviance. They also accused them of meddling into third world politics. But of course the family also replies and denies all of this and they deny all these criticisms, deny all the things are going on. And they say that they are a victim of persecution. Which, I mean, you can't really, I don't know, you can't really like, the truths out there, so people know about this cult. So for them denying it all is just... 

AJ: But I mean, of course they're going to deny it. They're not going to you're so conditioned to like, not believe anything that anyone from the outside world tells you. So it's like, it doesn't even matter what is out there about this cult because they're not even gonna believe a single word of it anyway. So it's like the people who need to hear it the most are the ones that won't be listening. 

Katie: But yeah, like even after David Berg died, like he died in 1994, that's when his wife Karen took over and she changed some of the rules, maybe trying to like appease the outside world to make it not look as bad. She changed some of the rules. Like you're not allowed to have sex with anyone that's under 16. It's like, oh, congrats for like following the law. I don't know. So just like ease up on some of the rules. Like you were allowed to have more than one cup of coffee every day, if you wanted. So it was like those kinds of things that she thought was, you know, gonna attract more people, or maybe have the press ease off of, you know, them thinking how bad they were when basically it was just like basic morality that they were finally coming in tow to. 

AJ: You're, you're allowed to drink an extra cup of coffee a day. Look, we're not so bad. 

Stephanie: So when I was watching the documentary on Netflix at the very end, they had interviewed one of the families of the cult today. Like one of the newer families of today, or one of the families who have been there for a while. And the interviewer asks this guy, about like the pornographic video that was in with all of the other videos that David Berg had sent and just all this stuff about the cult and the, like the inappropriate stuff about the young children and the guy that he's interviewing just basically like, says that, oh, there was nothing, like, I don't know where they got their information from. Like, there's nothing about that. I don't know anything about that. Like, that's not what, we're what we represent. We don't do that type of stuff in this cult.

AJ: I almost think like, I hate when, like, honestly I hate, half the time when reporters go and interview people, like, what do you expect them to say? Like, it's just annoying. It's like, you don't even bother interviewing them. Like, they're not gonna believe anything you say, they're going to be combative, defensive. Like you're not going to get anything out of that interview, and I feel like more of, so it's just like, oh, mocking them like, oh, look how like brainwashed they are and look how crazy they look. Like. I hate that shit.

Katie: Yeah. You can't just put someone on, in an interview and expect them to like completely open up about that kind of stuff. But also the cult did like a purge back in the day where they burnt all the kids passports so that someone coming in for an investigation, couldn't see all the stamps on the passports and they couldn't see how much they like traveled around the world with these kids. Cause that probably would look really sketchy and they got rid of a lot of the pornography videos and a lot of like the letters that were very pornographic and they said they would make the kids like draw bathing suits on all like the naked pictures. So it wouldn't be naked pictures, but they were covered up. So it was like really like really weird stuff like that to try and cover their tracks. 

AJ: Yeah. Well that's shit okay. That is like next level. Like what, before, when I said like, oh, are you are willing? You know, that you're doing bad stuff was like, obviously if you're going to those lengths to cover up the stuff that you're doing, then you know that it's bad that you're doing and you should, but I guess in their minds it's like, oh no, it is good. They just don't think it, they don't see it as good, so they're going to persecute us. So that's how they like twist it. 

Katie: Yeah. That's what would a lot of them did think because David was telling them that if you don't do this, they're gonna try and hurt us. 

AJ: But like steph, you were saying, about the interview the, the person interviewing them was like interviewing someone who was still in the cult?

Stephanie: Yeah. 

AJ: Yeah. That's why it's like, I don't even know what the point of interviewing them would be. Like, you're here because you're not expecting them to say, oh yeah, you're right. 

Stephanie: And the guy that he was interviewing just basically said like, all this negative stuff is putting like a bad name towards the cult because that's not what we, that's not what we represent. Like we don't condone that stuff. 

AJ: And like, of course, he's going to say that, like, what did they expect him to say? Like, that's what I hate. 

Katie: But maybe it is very different today. I'm not approving of it. But you know, maybe all that stuff really isn't common practice. Like everything I've heard is from the 70's and 80's and how bad it was at its worst. So, you know, maybe it has cleaned itself up. Maybe we will never know. 

AJ: Yeah. I mean, it could be, they could have cleaned itself up, but they still haven't been held accountable for the stuff that they did before, if they did clean it up. So I feel... 

Katie: Yeah. Well David's dead now, so he is the one that needs to be held accountable and he can't and his wife probably too, she's still the leader. I think. 

AJ: It's crazy to me how, how is that still even allowed to exist? It's out there. Everyone knows it's exists. Everyone knows what they're doing. Everyone knows that all these illegal things are happening and none of them are in jail. 

Katie: A lot of it has to do with the statute of limitations where a lot of these people that were abused, it's too late. They come forward and it's already past whatever the statute of limitation was, so even if it is true, the law can't do anything. So that's a lot of what happened, I think, because it takes, you know, decades for people to even come forward with this kind of thing. Which I don't understand, like the statute of limitations law. I don't even know why that's a thing?

AJ: I know. How has that not been stricken down or taken away? 

Katie: I know it doesn't make, it makes no sense, but anyway, I think that's the big problem here. 

AJ: It's just annoying too, because it's acute, I guess, from a legal perspective, it's like, you can't do anything until someone comes forward, but then when they do come forward, it's already too late. So it's like, but it's like, this thing was like, everyone knows it's happening, which is so annoying, but like they can't legally do anything, which is so annoying. 

Katie: Yeah. And they don't actually have proof except years later, once it's too late and that's just one person against the other. And also they've trained all the kids to say things, if anything does happen. So the kids aren't gonna say anything anyway. So it's just like a huge mess. Even in other cults, like Scientology and things like that, like that's still a thing today when we know that that's, you know, fucked up. So yeah.

AJ: I know. Fuck. We should do a whole mini series on Scientology. 

Katie: No, I'd be scared. 

Stephanie: I just want to mention that there are some notable people that were involved in this cult. Some of them, you may know some of them, you probably don't know. So I'm just going to name, name them off and yeah. Christopher Owens, who was a musician in a San Francisco indie band called "Girls". And he was brought up in the, in the "Children of God" cult by his parents. Also, there was, Juliana Buhring, I think I'm saying that right. She was the first woman to bike around the world and she's also a coauthor of "Not Without My Sister". She was brought up in the cult with her sister and I think her, her book is about her leaving the cult. You guys probably all know who this is. Rose Miguel. She was in charmed and she's also like a film actress. 

AJ: She brought down Harvey Weinstein.

Stephanie: Yes. There's a lot of interviews with her about her talking about the cult. We all know River Phoenix and Joaquin Phoenix, their family, along with his sister Rain and his other sister Summer. They were all members of the cult from 1972 to 1978 and River Phoenix said in an interview with Detailed Magazine in 1991 that the cult ruins people's lives and unfortunately, River died of a drug overdose in 1993. So you can kind of see how he struggled after he left the cult and then there's, Tina Dupuy, she was an American journalist and a syndicated columnist, and she was also in the cult. And then this one kind of shocked me, Jeremy Spencer who is a blue's slide guitarist and founding member of Fleetwood Mac. He joined the cult in 1971 as an adult. So he quit the band and went, which is crazy to me. 

AJ: That's crazy. Cause obviously he was an adult and knew what the real world was. And so that's crazy to think like what persuaded him? 

Stephanie: And he had a pretty good life. Cause he was part of this well known band and decides to leave.

AJ: Yeah, it's crazy. And then also I've just did a quick search of him at yeah. Like apparently he created a new band once he was in the cult too and like toured around the country. This is just like a quick like Google search. So I'd, haven't gone in depth, but sounds really creepy and yeah, it's crazy to think that somebody like at that age at, as an adult would just be, I'd be interested to like know like what persuaded him or who convinced him. It's weird. I mean, maybe it was, what's his name? David Berg himself who convinced him, but like, how does that happen? Which is like weird. 

Katie: Yeah. It's weird.

AJ: It's crazy. It's a crazy cult. It's crazy that it still exists in existence today. Like with all of the stuff that's out there about it and it's like, it's still alive. And I don't know how it's going to say it's still alive and well, but... 

Katie: In 2010, the Family International disassembled its previous organizational framework and currently exists only as a small online network. 

AJ: Small online community. I mean, there's still, it's a good small-scale version of what they were before. So it's like they're still in existence, but not to the level that they were, although who really knows what's going on. I mean, if that's what they're saying there a small online community. Like who knows what they're trying to keep hidden.

Katie: But at least to this day and age and online, things are way easier to track and prove if things happened then just out on some hippie commune somewhere. 

AJ: I mean, they could be doing all this online stuff. That's like very peaceful and very innocent. But then on these communes, that's when the real shit's going down, that can't be tracked. 

Katie: Yeah but they're not on communes anymore. It's just all online. 

AJ: How do you know that though? We don't know that. 

Katie: This is what Family International says on the website. 

AJ: It's true. I don't fuckin believe them. You believe what they say? I don't. I mean, like, they've also been saying that they have been innocent, innocent this whole time. So... 

Stephanie: It's kind of crazy to think all those people that I mentioned. They were in the cult, but got out and now they're actors or journalists. So like when you do get out, there is a lot of hope for people who do get out and try to make a life for themselves. But a lot of people do turn to like suicide and drugs and stuff because they can't just, they can't get, they can't come to grips with what had happened to them as growing up. They can't just get those thoughts out of their mind or whatever.

Katie: Yeah. It's probably hard to like, forget or overcome some of the things that they had to do or witness.

AJ: It's crazy. It's a crazy cult. 

That was part one of our cult mini series. So join us next week. We're going to be doing part two. We're going to dive deep into another cult and yeah. And as we go along, I'm sure you're going to start to see these patterns. You're going to see a lot of common themes that a lot of these cults do have. A lot of similar things that happen. Yeah. So it's going to be interesting to kind of see these connections between all these different cults, that all happen at like different time periods and in different countries and everything like that.

So definitely interesting. So yeah. Thanks so much for, for tuning into part one. You can as always follow us on all the social medias. @crimefamilypodcast on Instagram, @crimefamilypod1 on Twitter, Crime Family Podcast on Facebook. And our email is the same as always crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. That's where you can send us all of your suggestions and feedback and tips and all that stuff.

Also go to our website at crimefamilypodcast.ca that's kind of our hub for everything for the podcast. So you can listen to all of our episodes there and look at transcripts and all of that stuff and leave us a voicemail. So if you want to hear yourself on the podcast, maybe you want to leave us a voicemail about a theory that you have from one of our previous cases or case suggestions or whatever you would like.

 We would love to hear from you. So definitely do that. Yeah. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week for part two. Take care. 

Bye bye.