S03E04: THE DISAPPEARANCE OF JOHNNY GOSCH (PART I)

[00:00:00] AJ: Coming up on this episode of Crime Family.

[00:00:03] The disappearance of Johnny Gosch, who was a 12 year old boy from Iowa, who was abducted 40 years ago. So it's an understatement to say that this case is bizarre. It's actually so crazy and unbelievable and has so many twists and turns. So like I said, just brace yourself.

[00:00:20] Katie: When he's talking to that police officer under the bleachers, maybe it was a real police officer and they're involved in this whole recruiting kids for the sex ring. So that could be why they're, they're like, well, we're not going to help you find him because we're a part of it. 

[00:00:37] AJ: So Paul comes forward and claims that he was a victim of the same child sex trafficking ring that Johnny was involved in and says that he was there the morning that Johnny was abducted and involved in the kidnapping.

[00:01:46] Hi, everyone. Welcome to Crime Family. I'm your co-host AJ and as always, I'm here with my sisters, Stephanie and Katie. And for today's case, I'm going to be covering the disappearance of Johnny Gosch, who is a 12 year old boy from Iowa, who was abducted 40 years ago. In fact, he was actually only the second missing child ever to be featured on milk cartons in the US as part of the nationwide strategy to find missing children. So, you know how they would put missing kids on milk cartons and stuff. He was like the second kid ever to be featured on one of those. And it's a pretty high profile case. For you listening out there, you might know this case already. If you do, hopefully you will still listen and maybe you'll learn something new. And if you don't, then you're in for a wild ride, to say the least. 

[00:02:31] This is going to be a two part episode, because it's such a long case, there's so much to talk about and it has so many twists and turns and so much stuff involved. So we wanted to give it the time that it deserves. So we're going to make it a two part episode. So we're going to get started with part one right now. 

[00:02:49] So it's an understatement to say that this case is bizarre. It's actually so crazy and unbelievable and has so many twists and turns. So like I said, just brace yourself. And I want to warn our listeners that this case does involve talk about child sexual abuse and child sex trafficking, which might be triggering so listener discretion is strongly advised. With that being said, I'm going to dive right in. 

[00:03:12] This whole case begins on September 3rd, 1982, when 12 year old Johnny Gosch was at his older brother's high school football game with his mom Noreen and his dad, John. At some point during the game, Johnny asked his dad if he could go and grab some food from the concession stands and his dad gave him some money and then off he went. And the concession stand was still in eyes sight, so it's not like he was going super far away. They would still be able to see him, even if he was at the concession stand, so they weren't concerned about him going by himself. After Johnny didn't return, his parents became pretty worried and they couldn't see him at the concession stand anymore, so his dad went to see if maybe he needed help or see where he might've run off to. He eventually did find Johnny standing underneath the bleachers, talking to a police officer. And it's quite odd that Johnny would be, you know, underneath the bleachers with a total stranger police officer ,or not, and we don't know what the nature of their conversation was. Johnny's father called him over to get him away from the police officer, but he didn't actually walk up to them. So he never, you know, overheard what their conversation was. He never got up close, look at this police officer. So he had no idea like what the nature of their meeting was, or anything like that. It might've been totally innocent. Like maybe, Johnny just went up to the officer and started talking to him rather than the police officer seeking him out. I mean, we'll never really know, and Johnny never disclosed what they were talking about or how the two came to be talking underneath the bleachers. So it's kind of still a mystery. But later on when they were leaving after the game, Johnny saw the same police officer again, and then pointed him out to his parents and told them that he wanted to be a police officer when he grew up. So this police officer had quite the impression on Johnny, to the point where Johnny now wants to be a police officer. So at the time Noreen and John weren't necessarily concerned about this encounter. Like, yeah, it was odd, but they didn't really do anything about it. They just kind of brushed it off and said it was a little bit weird, but nothing more than that. But especially in retrospect, it is pretty odd, and considering what happens next in the story, it's definitely odd.

[00:05:28] So the football game was on a Friday night and the next day Johnny's older sister came to visit from college and the entire family was together and they had a family dinner and the dinner was pretty normal and they were just discussing, you know, plans for the weekend. Like they were going to take a trip to a nearby lake the next day and they were going to go on the family's boat. And Johnny was very excited about this and he was looking forward to it. Noreen has said in interviews that she now refers to this family dinner as the last supper, because this was the last family dinner that they would ever have together. And so this is in September of 1982. And about a year prior to that, Johnny got a job as a paper boy in his neighborhood, and Noreen says that he was a very responsible 12 year old, he was saving up money. He wanted to buy a bike that he really wanted, and he really liked the responsibility of having, you know, his first job. And he was known as like the neighborhood paper boy or one of the neighborhood paper boys, so he just kind of took pride in that. His route consisted of 28 houses in a few block radius from the family home. So it wasn't like he was going like far distances whenever he went on his paper routes, it was pretty close, relatively to the house. After dinner on this Saturday night, Johnny said that he had to go to bed shortly because he had to be up early the next morning to deliver the papers. But before going to bed, Johnny asked his parents if he could go on his route by himself the next morning, which as far as I know is not something that he had ever asked before. Noreen says in interviews that either herself or John would always go with Johnny on his route. Never once did he do it alone, nor did he ask to. And like, obviously not allowing him to go alone is the smart thing to do. Like the thought of letting a 12 year old boy walk around while it's still dark outside, six in the morning, even if it is just a few blocks from the house, it seems kind of creepy. And like, I don't know, maybe 12 is a reasonable age where you would be okay with letting him go. But, I think it's perfectly reasonable for them not to want to allow that. However, his dad, John said that it would be okay if Johnny went alone this time, but Noreen was the one who put her foot down and she said that he absolutely could not. And so after this discussion, it was decided that Johnny would have to wake up his parents early, before he went out so that one of them could go with him. That was always the routine that they had done before. So after this discussion, Johnny went upstairs and Noreen went back to doing the dishes or whatever she was doing. But then when she turned around a few minutes later, Johnny was there again. He had come back down the stairs and gave his mom a big hug and said, quote, "I really love you", before turning around and going back upstairs the second time. And as it turns out, this is the last time that Noreen ever saw her son again, or is it? That was that. John went to bed and they had decided, okay, he was going to wake them up in the morning, and that was, that was that. So between 12:30 and 1:00 AM, early Sunday morning, so this would just be a few hours later, the phone rang and Noreen says that this wasn't really unusual to get a call at this time, because in fact, for weeks prior to this, they had been receiving phone calls from a wrong number, always around the same time every night. Each time this call would come in, John would be the one to answer the phone because Noreen said that the phone was like on his side of the bed, so he would always be the one to answer it. And he would always just say it was the wrong number. But this particular time when they got this phone call, at around the same time, between 12:30 and 1:00, Noreen recalls that she could hear John saying things on the phone and like having a conversation with this person, he was saying things like, "Yeah. Okay. All right", before hanging up. John said it was just the wrong number again, and Noreen went back to sleep, but you know, thought it was odd because you wouldn't have a conversation with someone who was calling from the wrong number. And for whatever reason, it was a different conversation. Like it was more of a conversation that he had ever had before with this person on the other end of the phone. So she thought that that was kind of weird, but obviously didn't think too much about it, and just went back to bed. Early Sunday morning, so this was September 5th now, Johnny didn't wake up his parents, like he normally did. And instead left by himself to do his paper route around 5:45. Johnny took the family dog, Gretchen with him. He tied Gretchen's leash to his red wagon and left to collect his papers from the designated paper drop, which was at an intersection just two blocks east from the family home. A neighbor says that she saw Johnny cutting through their yard with his wagon towards the paper drop. So I guess that's how they know that it was around 5:45 when he left by himself. We don't know why he didn't listen to his parents and why he didn't wake them up, like he always did before. And why he was seem like determined to go by himself this particular morning. So the family was woken up by the phone ringing again. But this time it was from a neighbor saying that they didn't get the paper that morning, and they were just calling to see if Johnny was out doing his paper route, or if something had happened or if he was running behind or whatever. And this must have been between 6:00 and 7:00 AM. So Noreen went to go check Johnny's room and he wasn't there, so she figured that he must've gone out to do his route alone, despite being told not to. So she was probably annoyed and John agreed to go out and try to find him so that he could help him along on his route. And so John went out to go look for Johnny and to his horror, he found Johnny's red wagon on the corner, not far from the paper drop. The wagon was abandoned, still stacked full of newspapers. And so there's a little bit of conflicting information with this one part, like some reports claim that the family dog made her way home by herself. But then other reports claim that the dog was found still tied to the wagon on the street corner. So a weird detail to be different. Like it's either the dog was tied to the wagon or not. So I don't know how that kind of gets mixed up, but whatever the case, the wagon was there, the papers were there, but Johnny was nowhere to be found. John instantly runs home to inform Noreen that Johnny is gone and this sends the whole family into a massive panic, thus beginning the investigation into the disappearance of Johnny Gosch. And just an interesting kind of side note, John took it upon himself, oh, by the way, when I say John, I'm talking about the dad. Johnny is the little boy, in case this is confusing. But interestingly, John took it upon himself to deliver all the newspapers to the neighborhood that Johnny wasn't able to deliver that morning before going out and searching the area or going back to the house to meet with the police or be with Noreen and the rest of his family, which is kind of weird. Like it's weird that the, that would be top of mind for him to, you know, better make sure those papers are delivered. So that's a little weird. Like what do you guys think about that? 

[00:12:21] Katie: To me, it makes me think maybe he wasn't super concerned that, you know, something had happened to Johnny. Maybe he was just thinking that he left to go somewhere. So it makes you think he wasn't too concerned, but also maybe he wanted to like knock on all those neighbors doors and be like, you know, "Johnny's not where he's supposed to be. Do you kind of know anything about it? Have you seen him or anything like that?" So maybe he was like using that as an opportunity to go door to door.

[00:12:49] Stephanie: Yeah. I was going to say that maybe. I mean, my first instinct would go home and call...

[00:12:54] AJ: Well, he did go home. Like he did go home and alerted Noreen that Johnny was gone, the wagon was gone, but then I guess like he didn't wait for the police to come. He went back and delivered the papers. So he did notify the family right away. As far as I know, cause he came back to the house like Noreen says in interviews that he came back to the house like white, as a sheet, obviously panicked and told her that the wagon was there and Johnny was gone. But then I guess it was after that, that he went back out and delivered the papers, instead of being with his wife, or being with their family or waiting for the police. 

[00:13:26] Stephanie: Okay. Well then, yeah. Then I kind of agree with Katie, maybe he was going out canvassing the neighborhood, to see if anybody saw Johnny or knew something or whatever. So yeah, I kind of could see it both ways. Like maybe he didn't want to wait and wait home and wait for the police, maybe he wanted to start searching for Johnny right away and get the investigation going and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's hard to say. 

[00:13:50] Katie: Yeah. And it is, it is kind of weird that he would go on that paper route to deliver the papers. Like if he wanted to talk to people, why not just go house to house, you know, around the neighborhood rather than I'm going to follow this paper route and do two things at once. Like that just kind of seems weird, right? Like he could have just went to people's houses to talk that, to talk to them about Johnny being missing. You know what I mean? 

[00:14:13] AJ: Yeah. And like I said, his route consisted of about 28 houses and in an interview I watched with Noreen, she says that all of the bundles of papers, like they were still in bundles, you know, that like hard, like white plastic that they put around like bundles of stuff? So all of the, those were like still on the papers. So none of them had even been delivered. So it was like pretty much right away, as soon as he collected his papers and started his route. So it was like very early on. So John went and delivered 28 papers.

[00:14:48] Once the investigation began, it wasn't long before people in the neighborhood disclosed what they saw that morning. So I'm going to kind of give you the accounts of some of the witnesses and it might be a little bit confusing that like the timeline of it, so I'm going to try to like, make it as clear as possible. So a few fellow paper boys came forward with the same story. So they each had the same story and they both said that they saw Johnny talking to somebody in a two-tone blue car next to the paper drop. This person was asking Johnny for directions to 86th Street, which was roughly 20 blocks away from their current location. And there's a podcast I listened to about this case, called the Mile Higher podcast, and they say that this car was reportedly parked by the paper drop for about 20 minutes before Johnny approached it. So I don't know if it was waiting for Johnny specifically or if it was just waiting for someone, to show up. I'm not really sure of that detail, but after speaking with Johnny, the car takes a U-turn and just drives off. But then shortly after a neighbor named John Rossi, so another John in this story, so I'm going to just refer to him as Rossi, just so that you don't get confused. But so this neighbor named John Rossi says that he saw the same two-tone vehicle stopped to talk to Johnny again, a little bit further down the road. This time stopped at the street corner and called out to Johnny and his friend, Mike asking once again for directions to 86th Street. Rossi was outside of his home at this time, and I guess when Johnny saw Rossi, he called out to him and said something to the effect of like, "Can you help this man? He wants to know where 86th Street is?" So he was kind of like calling Rossi over to assist this man in the car, who's now asking Johnny for directions for the second time. Rossi says that like the man then took off, did a U-turn and speeding away in his car almost as if he didn't want the help of an adult, but only wanted to speak to the children. And almost like he took off to avoid being seen or identified by a bystander. Of course, we don't know for sure if that's why, but he took off very shortly after Johnny called for Rossi to come over. Afterwards, Johnny went back to talking to his friend, Mike, who was a fellow paper boy, and Rossi overheard the boys talking amongst themselves and saying comments to each other, to the effect of like ,quote," That man in the car is really creepy." That's not an exact quote, but it's something similar to that effect. Basically by their comments, rossi knew that they were kind of weirded out by this person, even though he didn't know the exact quote that they had said. So then there's another 15 year old paper boy who came forward and recalled seeing, quote, "A tall man" walk out from between two houses, walk towards Johnny, crossing the street, and then following him down the road for a short amount of time. He never catches up to Johnny or makes any contact with him, and Johnny continues on his route, apparently, not even noticing that this tall man was behind him. So I don't really know who that person is or where that person fits in. And then at some point along the way, another neighbor says that he saw, from his second floor bedroom window, a silver and black Ford Fairmont drive up and park at another street corner, close to where Johnny was. The neighbor says that he couldn't see Johnny behind the car because of, like, the angle of where his house was situated. But says that he turned his head away for just a moment, and then in that time heard a car door slam and then drive quickly away. And it's very likely that this is the same vehicle as before. So this neighbor described a silver and black vehicle while other witnesses like John Rossi and the other paper boys, mentioned a two-tone blue vehicle. But I think it's likely that the car was actually blue because several witnesses mentioned this two-tone blue vehicle and this other neighbor named PJ Smith, he's the only one who mentioned the car being black and silver. So I think it's just possible, like it's very easily that he could have mistaken the color. I mean, it's 6:00 AM, it's not fully light out and he's far away, like he's looking out his second floor window, so it's easy to make a mistake in the color. So I think it's pretty obvious that the car was two toned, like it had two different colors going on regardless of what the color is actually were, but it's very likely that these were the same vehicle. After the car door slams and drives off quickly, this is the last time that Johnny's ever seen along his route, and reports estimate that this was around 6:06 AM. So this would have been about 20 or 21 minutes after he first left his house at 5:45. So it happened within a 20 minute window, all of these encounters. So there was many paper boys in the neighborhood, so they're all delivering papers around the same time. So it's, that's why all of these different people are seeing Johnny at different points, just because they're all kind of walking around the same area. And then two newspaper carriers who saw Johnny earlier along the route say that they saw Johnny's wagon and his dog sitting at the same street corner as before, but no Johnny. So I guess my understanding from the account was that these two paper boys were like walking towards Johnny, on their way to the paper drop. And so then they went, they got their papers, because Johnny had already gotten his papers from the paper drop, and then they went and got the papers and then they were walking back. And then when they were walking back, they saw the wagon and the dog at the same spot that they saw Johnny at before, but except, Johnny wasn't there this time on the way back. So it would have been only been within a couple of minutes, a timeframe where that would have happened. And this would have been around the same time or shortly after that neighbor witnessed this car door slamming and speeding away.

[00:20:39] So that's kind of how quickly it all sort of happened. So as soon as Noreen calls the police to report Johnny missing, it's immediately clear that the West Des Moines Police Department isn't taking Johnny's disappearance seriously. Noreen estimates that the officers arrived 45 minutes after the initial 911 call. So hardly with any urgency at all. And also Noreen was informed that the timeline gets a little bit blurry here, but it's either later that day or maybe the next day or few days later, but there were a lot of community members that came and they were like trying to help in the search effort. So there was volunteers who were coming and they were searching like local parks and wooded areas and stuff like that. So there was quite a large group, and a bunch of them came to Noreen and then said that like a police officer who was at one of these volunteering events, stood on a picnic table with a megaphone telling all the volunteers to go home, and that ,quote, "This kid is nothing but a damn runaway", unquote. So all of these witness statements that came up early on and all those people who said that they saw Johnny along his route, all these people were people that Noreen herself had talked to. So it wasn't even actually the police that talked to any of these people, it was Noreen who went around talking to the neighborhood and got all of these stories from the people. So the police didn't do anything to help in that regard. So if it wasn't for Noreen, we wouldn't have even known all of these accounts. And so it's just very clear that the police don't really care for whatever reason. And the only people who seem legitimately concerned about finding Johnny was his own family and his friends. Police consider Johnny a runaway and told Norine that they had to wait 72 hours before filing a missing persons report because of this runaway status. But Noreen is adamant that Johnny would not have intentionally left. He was excited about going on the boat the next day. Like he had things in his life he was looking forward to and he was just a happy normal kid. So there's no signs that he would ever just intentionally run away. And also too, I think it's important to know, like, I think the fact that the police, like the police argument of that, he was a runaway is completely ridiculous because if he was going to run away, why would he get his wagon and pick up all the papers and then just leave, like you would have just walked out of his house, right? He's not going to do all that. And then it was the police, they were trying to make the argument that it wasn't an abduction because there was no evidence that like there was no crime scene and there was no like tampering of the evidence almost to suggest that like, well, if he was abducted, they would have taken the wagon too, like, oh, we're going to take the wagon and all the papers so that we don't leave a trace. Like that's also ridiculous too. Like it's just stupid. They're going to take the time to like put the wagon in the back of the car and all that shit. Like they don't care about that ,they just want Johnny and that's it. So the police are just kind of coming up with all of these sort of reasons why they don't believe it's a serious case and that they were just going to wait because he's a runaway. But their logic doesn't even make sense. The argument that they were trying to push just is laughable. 

[00:23:33] Stephanie: I hate when police think like he just ran away. Like, I feel like I hate when they say like, that's their first instinct. "Oh, he just 12 year old boy, he just ran away." Like, no, he didn't run away. So I just hate the fact that they always say, oh, he's missing and you had to wait however long you wait.

[00:23:48] Katie: But also if a kid runs away, aren't the police supposed to look for them anyway? You know, they're technically missing and it's a minor. Why wouldn't they be like, we're going to go find that kid. Even though he may have went somewhere on his own, you know what I mean? That they still have to look. 

[00:24:08] AJ: Yeah, that doesn't mean oh he's a runaway, so we're just going to do nothing, and just, until he comes back. Like, no, he's a runaway he's still a missing person. Like it's just because his location is unaccounted for, so obviously they don't know where he is. 

[00:24:19] Katie: Yeah. Especially when he's a minor only 12.

[00:24:24] AJ: Yeah. So just doesn't really make sense at all and Noreen and the whole entire family was just kind of dumbfounded by the lack of care from the police. And not only were they saying like, oh, you have to wait 72 hours, it's like, they were actively trying, it seemed to sabotage the search because they were telling the volunteers to go home and they weren't allowing people to look, or they just weren't looking into any of these leads. So it's pretty obvious that they're just not interested at all. So, and like at this point, so early on, we have, like there's lots of potential leads. They have a description of the car from multiple witnesses. They have a description of the man that's inside one of the cars from a few people, who've seen him. And they have descriptions of that tall man who was following Johnny that morning. So like, those are three things right there, which is plenty of leads to go on right away. And who knows if the police actually took action right away? Like what could come of those leads. Noreen mentioned that, you know, they could have done so much. They could have put out, you know, a national bulletin with the car's description right away, keeping people on the lookout for this car. They could have posted Johnny's picture everywhere right away and interview all of these eyewitnesses in detail. But they did nothing. Noreen even had to call the FBI herself to get them involved. And the FBI finally did arrive on the scene days after the disappearance. And then only to tell them that they would not be proceeding with the case because the West Des Moines police chief, named Orville Cooney, told them that they did not require the FBI's help. And this is all according to an interview that Noreen Gosch gave in the years since the disappearance. So when the FBI finally do make an appearance, it's kind of just to say like, okay, well we are here, but we're telling you that we're not doing, going to actively do anything because the local police chief said he doesn't need our help and we're not going to inject ourselves into this case.

[00:26:08] Katie: I never understand why the police don't want extra help. They don't want the FBI there. It's not like that police department has to pay the FBI. Right? They're there to help. Why wouldn't they just be like, yes, please? Instead of no, we got this when they act clearly, don't. 

[00:26:25] AJ: Yeah. It's, it's very weird. And I can't really explain why. 

[00:26:30] Katie: Unless there is something they're trying to cover up. 

[00:26:33] AJ: That's what Noreen says that ,like very early on, she was kind of suspicious that there was potentially some kind of coverup going on because that's the only kind of explanation that she could give as to why this would be happening, because it doesn't really make any, any sense otherwise why they would actively, like I said, not just not looking, but then actively trying to discourage other people from looking or discourage actual investigation into this disappearance. So super-weird. And then also remember those suspicious phone calls that the Gosch's were receiving for weeks before the disappearance from this wrong number, well, these calls stopped after Johnny's abduction. So that's also kind of weird. And as we see in lots of other cases, many people in the public were suspicious of Noreen, because they didn't consider her to be a grieving mother. I guess she wasn't sad or distraught enough for their liking, despite her really being the only person trying to advocate for her missing son and actually try to do something to find him. But, you know, as we've discussed in lots of other cases, you know, if you're not sad enough, you're suspicious. If you're overdramatic and too sad, some people thought that she was too out there and she was trying to get too much attention. And then other people said that she wasn't grieving enough. Then she wasn't really authentic in her interactions, in the public. Which, whatever, people have opinions about everything, so I don't really look into any of that at all. So the first kind of lead or event that comes up after this disappearance, and this is a few months after Johnny goes missing. And it's a report from an eyewitness from Oklahoma who says that she encountered a young boy running out of the bushes, screaming and hollering for help. He said that his name was Johnny David Gosch, and he was screaming for help before being dragged off by two men. So she of course, went to the police with this report, but they couldn't track down the boy or like identify him or confirm this. And so while this siting has never been officially linked to Johnny Gosch's disappearance, the FBI has considered it credible. And we will, of course never know, but it's just something that I wanted to mention. And it's just kind of odd. Like, I don't know if it's somebody who just knew about the Johnny Gosch case and was just playing a prank or if this was legitimately Johnny calling out for the help of this passer-by. So like I said, a mystery, we don't really know. And then, actually during this investigation and this didn't really come up in any of the other places I looked at, it was just kind of a individual article that I came across that I thought was interesting. And it was an LA times news article from 1990. So it was like in their archive part of their website, but there was an article about a potential lead in the case, after a body of a boy was found in a drainage ditch in Northern Mexico. And this boy was identified as John E Gosch and a family in Tacoma, Washington came forward and said it was their son, but it's just kind of odd that it was similar to John D Gosch, cause the Johnny in this case is Johnny D Gosch. So it is just somebody with a very, very similar name. And then eerily this boy that was found dead in this drainage ditch, his birthday was only two weeks before Johnny Gosch is in this case. And the family from Washington said they adopted a son from Oklahoma in 1980 and renamed him John, and Oklahoma is of course where this eye witnessed saw Johnny Gosch. So it's just a weird coincidence and like just kind of goes to show you, it's kind of a lot in this case, things like that, like random, weird coincidences that you can't really explain. And I obviously it's not connected and there's never really been any follow-ups. So it was just strange coincidence that somebody with the same first and last name with a different initial in the middle, this boy was adopted from Oklahoma and then Johnny Gosch is seen in Oklahoma by this woman. Like, it's just very weird. 

[00:30:28] Stephanie: Was Gosch like a popular, last name back in the eighties? Like, did you ever find... 

[00:30:33] AJ: I have no idea. 

[00:30:34] Stephanie: That is super, super sketchy.

[00:30:36] AJ: It's super weird. 

[00:30:37] Katie: Yeah, like John is obviously a very common name and it still is. But to have the same last name. That's like, what are the odds of that? 

[00:30:47] AJ: I know it's, it's so weird. And that was in 1990 when they found the body of this boy and it was important. I think it's also important that he was found in Mexico because then I don't go into it in depth in this case, but there were, then there was also sort of another red herring about somebody who came forward saying that he was sold to like a drug cartel in Mexico. And that's what happened to him. But I didn't really follow that lead because I was just red herring and nothing really came of it. But then it's, so it's also interesting that this boy was found in Mexico. So it's just a weird coincidence. And like I said, there's a lot of those in this case. The question is like, how does a little boy just vanish without a trace while doing his paper route without barely any police effort to locate him? Like, it's pretty crazy that that happens. Then it happens again. 

[00:31:36] On August 12th, 1984, 13 year old, Eugene Martin also disappeared under very similar circumstances. Just like Johnny, Eugene left early in the morning to conduct his paper route in the West Des Moines area. So the same part of the city that Johnny went missing from, and like Johnny, he normally would be accompanied on his route by a family member, but this particular morning chose to go alone. Shortly after, his delivery bag was found dropped on the side of the road with all of his papers, undelivered still inside, also eye witnesses in that case said they saw Eugene talking to a man in his thirties shortly before the disappearance. Eugene was a similar age, in the same city, under the same circumstances, two years later. This can't be a coincidence, right? Or at least I didn't think it was just upon looking at it at face value. It's just a very odd coincidence if it is a coincidence. So Eugene's disappearance ignited public interest in Johnny's case. And people began to wonder about the possible connections between these two cases and like I said, at the beginning, Johnny was one of the first children to be placed on milk cartons as part of a national campaign to find missing children. And his picture was placed right next to Eugene's on these cartons. So these two disappearances were kind of very closely linked or people were kind of looking at them together because of the similarity in the circumstances and the area and the age of the two boys. 

[00:32:55] The next lead in this case comes in 1985. So this is three years after Johnny's gone missing, and of course he's still missing and there's been no sign of him since, other than that, siting by that woman in Oklahoma. And this lead actually comes from a woman in Sioux City, Iowa. She says that she was out doing her grocery shopping, and when she was at the checkout, she paid for groceries and she got some money back. She got a dollar bill back as change, and she noticed that there was something kind of weird about this dollar bill. So she looked and there was a note written on the dollar bill. In clear letters, the words," I am alive. Johnny Gosch" were written. Johnny's name was written as a signature and the woman of course reported this bill and I'm assuming, you know, this case was pretty high profile, so she knew that name. She brought it to the authorities and eventually the Gosch's got possession of this dollar bill and they believed it to be a legitimate. And there were three separate handwriting experts who did confirm that it was Johnny Gosch's writing on the dollar bill. And his parents said that the signature that was signed was very similar to Johnny's own signatures. Noreen said that Johnny liked to sign his name a lot. It was just kind of like a thing he would do and this was his signature. So they do believe it to be actually written by Johnny, kind of like as a call for help, which is so sad to think about. It's weird. Like when I was looking, there's a lot of different sources for this case, like a lot of different podcasts cover it. There's a lot of articles and interviews and stuff, and even went on like the Reddit forums, just to kind of see what other people were saying, and it's kind of just taken as a fact of like that these three separate handwriting experts confirmed that it was Johnny, but I couldn't find an actual written source that said that. So I don't know where that information came from, but it's kind of weird that every kind of place you look to for this case mentions that, or at least the ones I looked at. Like there was at least three different podcasts I listened to that said that. And other places said that as well, but I couldn't find like a news article that said it was three separate handwriting experts. So I don't know if, where that came from. I think maybe it may have came from, cause Noreen Gosch wrote a book about this and I think it might've come from her book, but I mean, I'll get into it a little bit later, some of that other stuff. So I, but anyway, I just wanted to put that out there that I don't, like, I didn't find an actual legitimate, like New York Times article or something that said that but it's kind of part of the lore of this case is that it was kind of confirmed by three separate experts and that it was believed to be written by Johnny. Although, there was, I did find an article by the United Press International from 1985. So again, it was like digging into archives and this article says that this exact bill was put into circulation in 1974, which is obviously before Johnny went missing. So it couldn't be used as like a clear timeline of when it was written. So obviously, you know, if the bill was created in like 84, then they knew that it had to be written sometime after that. But because it was written in 74, like they don't know if it was written the day after he went missing or if it was written two years later, three years later. But if you believe that that handwriting was from Johnny, then he was alive at the time that he wrote that, but who knows how many people's hands that it went into before it was finally turned in?

[00:36:13] Katie: I think it would have to be pretty recent because I think if a bank comes across like a bill or something that's ripped or has any sort of like defamation on it like that, they have to take it out of circulation because it's technically illegal to do stuff like that to money. So I feel like if the bank finds it, then they get rid of it or turn it over to whoever. So I feel like that was probably pretty recent if somebody found it, like it hadn't gotten through the bank system yet. 

[00:36:46] AJ: Yeah, that's true. So it could have been someone at the grocery store earlier that day who paid, used it to pay and then cause this person got it back as change. So who knows how long it was in the till... 

[00:36:58] Katie: Yeah, cause you know, all the money from grocery stores goes to the bank eventually, right? So it was like, if it stayed in that till it would have gone to the bank probably that day or later that week. So if, I feel like it was a recent thing, unless somebody was keeping it in their pocket forever and then decided to spend it. But yeah. 

[00:37:18] AJ: Yeah. So, I mean, that's a good point. I didn't really think of that. So it probably was fairly recent. So if it, if you believe that it was written by Johnny and that it was recent, then like, you know, that he was alive for, this is like three years after his disappearance. So you know that he is alive up to three years after he went missing. So yeah, but it's like super, super sketchy. It's super weird. And the Gosch's actually did a press conference when they were made aware of this bill and they actually took like a copy of it and they showed it at the press conference. So it was legitimately written. This note was written. 

[00:37:52] But then in March of 1986, a young boy named Mark Allen disappeared from Des Moines. He left his mom's house to go and visit a friend. And, and the documentary called "Who Took Johnny" came out in 2014 and they actually interviewed Mark's mom and she kind of recounts her her last day with Mark, and the last time she saw him and she said that she, he walked out of the house and she watched him walk down the street until he got to the bushes and then he was out of sight, but he never made it to his friend's house and was never seen again. And once again, it's a boy of similar age disappearing in the same city. This time under slightly different circumstances. Like it wasn't a paper boy, but it seems, it seems like every two years, a young boy from Des Moines is being abducted. Once in 82, then in 84 ,and then in 86. And the police are doing absolutely nothing to help in any of these cases. So there's been nothing that officially links these three cases together, although it is highly suspicious. So during all this in the first few years of the investigation, Noreen was made aware of the disappearances of two young girls from 1982 as well. So I think she saw like a newspaper clipping or somehow found out about the disappearance of these two missing girls who went missing just weeks before Johnny went missing in 1982. They were from Des Moines as well and sold into a sex trafficking ring in Omaha, Nebraska. This caught Noreen's attention of course, because the girls were abducted so close to around the time that Johnny was, and also from Des Moines. These two girls were eventually found and they were found in like captivity as a part of this child sex trafficking ring. And some of the people who were involved in that were brought to justice, but this really caused Noreen to really shift her focus on child sex trafficking rings. And she kind of really started to look into it and how it could possibly be a major factor in what happened to these three Iowa boys who went missing, but especially Johnny. Also, there were some claims, again like that I, that came up throughout my research into this case, there were some claims that the blue vehicle that was seen at the time of Johnny's abduction had Nebraska license plates. But other sources say that they were Iowa license plates. But if they were Nebraska plates, it is kind of interesting when you consider these two missing girls and the sex trafficking ring that was discovered in Nebraska just a few years later. So I don't know, is that another coincidence? If it is Nebraska plates is it a coincidence that it happens to be a car from Nebraska, and there's also this huge sex trafficking ring in Omaha, Nebraska? It just seems kind of a little bit fishy. And like I said, this, that day that they abducted Johnny would have only been a couple of weeks after these other girls went missing. So was it like some predator who was searching the streets for young children in this very few week period? Who knows? 

[00:40:43] So then the next lead in this case is, happened on Valentine's Day in 1988. Noreen was shocked when she received a typewritten letter in her mailbox from Johnny. It was postmarked from Idaho. And like I said, it was typewritten, but in the letter, Johnny says that he is alive, but being held captive against his will. That his hair has been cut and dyed and that he would never be allowed to leave. And because it's typewritten, it's impossible for handwriting experts to analyze this letter, like they had done with the writing on the dollar bills. So it's possible, it could be easy that someone could just, you know, type up. And if it's a high profile case, you have all those creeps, who just kind of want to be assholes and just play pranks or whatever. So you could easily just say that it was just anybody who typed out this letter. However, at the end of the letter, the writer signs off "Love your son. Johnny Gosch." And this particular detail made Noreen convinced that the letter was from Johnny because he would always write letters and cards to them, like before he went missing, he would always write letters and cards and he would always sign off in this exact same way. He would always write "Love your son, Johnny Gosch." And this is kind of a quirky thing that they would often tease him about. They were like, "you don't have to write like your last name." Like, it just seems so formal, right, for like just writing a letter and a card to his parents. So, that was something that they were aware of. And so that was what stuck out to Noreen when she read this letter, because it was signed off in this specific way, which is kind of something that not any random person would just know, like that was never just out there. So it seems kind of weird that they would be used in this letter if it wasn't from Johnny. But again, the police didn't really do anything, cause she obviously brought this up to the police and they basically just ignored it. They just kind of wrote her off, and there's a lot of interviews with Noreen, where she actually says that the police called her a loon and said that they didn't really care about what she thought, what she said. They just thought she was a crazy person who was coming up with all of these different things that had no meaning. And basically just wrote her off. And she was saying that, you know, if this is how they treat you, if you advocate for your son and you actually actively try to find them, they're gonna discredit you and right, they say that you're a loon. So are they trying to cover up something? Like, I don't know what their role in all of this is because it seems weird that they're so adamant that, and kind of seem annoyed that she's doing what she's doing. But it just, it's kind of sad that all she's trying to do is just advocate for her son and speak up for him. Do you guys have any thoughts so far before I get to the next part of this? Or do you have any theories or? 

[00:43:24] Katie: Yeah, this is just me thinking, but it makes me think that maybe whoever's kidnapping him and I don't know why they would do this, but, you know, "Here, you can write a letter to your parents and we'll send it out for you." And then maybe they, like, they typed it up for him or something. Or this is like later they found a letter that he had written and then they typed it up. I don't know. That's just weird. That's why they knew how to sign it like that. But why, why type it up and send it years later or why type it up and send it at all? I guess if it wasn't him. So that's just me thinking out loud. 

[00:44:01] AJ: No, I think that's a good point because in other things I've listened to, like people were mentioning it's like, how would he have access to a typewriter or a computer to type this out? Like if he's being held captive or something, but I mean, you don't really know what his situation is or like where he's being kept or maybe it is a place that has access to a computer. I don't know. Also this is 88, so it would be like a typewriter. It wouldn't be like an actual, I don't know what they had in 88, probably not a word processor or something. I just think like, cause it would be easy to say, "Oh it's just a hoax. Like somebody found out her mailing information and just wanted to play a sick prank." But then, it's like, how would they know to sign it off in that specific way? And that is a very specific way. Like that's not a common thing. I mean, I mean, maybe it is a common thing, but then is it just a coincidence that it's also the exact same way that he also signed off before? Like, I don't know if "Love your son. Johnny Gosch" is that common of a way to sign off a letter? You know what I mean? Like would a person who's trying to impersonate Johnny, would they know to make it that, that specific detail? I just, I don't know. It just seems like a coincidence that they would be like, it would be a hoax who just happened to get that detail right. 

[00:45:11] Katie: It does seem specifically you'd have to know that that's how he signed it to be, it's too much of a coincidence I feel, if it wasn't him. But I don't know how, why send it for him or how did he get access to that. Yeah, I dunno. 

[00:45:30] Stephanie: Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. Like, I don't, like that is a weird way to sign off on a letter. But I don't know, he was 12, so maybe that's how he signed things when he was writing them. But I don't know. It does seem a little bit weird to me, but...

[00:45:45] AJ: Yeah. Well this is 88, so at this time it would have been six years after his disappearance. He would have been 18 at this point. But I just, I don't know. It's just weird. Every, every aspect of this case, I don't know where I stand. I don't know if I believe it. I don't know if it's true. I don't know if it's a hoax. I don't know. And yeah, I don't know. So I'm going to say, I don't know a lot in this case because I just don't know. There's, I just find it very weird. Like, I don't know if I believe that this many coincidences can occur without there being some sort of truth to it. So I don't know that I believe that it was just a coincidence would happen and that it signed off in the exact same way that Johnny would. Like, no one would know that unless they knew Johnny or it was Johnny. 

[00:46:31] Katie: But who would send that letter for him? Cause I feel if he was out there able to go to the post office himself, why wouldn't he say something to somebody else rather than send his mom this secret letter.

[00:46:40] AJ: But I mean, it could be like, you could have Stockholm Syndrome. At this point he could be, you know, he doesn't want to escape. Maybe he is walking out and around and doesn't even leave...

[00:46:49] Katie: Yeah it's true. Yeah. 

[00:46:49] AJ: He's so conditioned. So, and that's the thing, like I said, like we don't know his situation, right? Like he could be walking out the streets just by himself and they know he's not gonna run away because he just is, it's just, it's crazy, I don't know. If it wasn't for like that way that it was signed off, you would think, okay, it's a hoax. Somebody is just playing a sick joke, cause we see that all the time in cases that are high profile. People are just assholes and play pranks. 

[00:47:11] Katie: So, the police were never able to like trace what post office it came from and stuff like that? Did they try to do anything like that? Cause there's always posts on stamps they put on. 

[00:47:20] AJ: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I didn't. None of the stuff that I saw, said any of that information, so I guess they didn't, and this is just what Noreen says. She got this letter, but again, I never, I never really saw any of the, any police officers confirm this information, if you know what I mean? Like Noreen, just saying she got this letter. So I don't know, like, if there was, I never saw like press conference from the police confirming that it existed. You know what I mean? So I don't know. She says she turned it over to the police or she went to them. But also at this point it's been six years of them downplaying everything she says, not believing her saying that she's a loon and like, maybe she doesn't trust the police anymore. Like maybe she's not turning over this stuff to them right away, because she doesn't know what they'll do with that information. Be hard to trust people when they are like, kind of laughing at you for six years.

[00:48:06] Katie: That's true. And she could have told them about it and they could have been like, well, we don't care. So she just kept it. 

[00:48:12] AJ: And by this point it's been six years, so she's basically the only one still kind of on the case at this point. And trying to connect it to these other missing little boys and connecting it to this possible sex ring in Omaha. Like she's kind of the one who's doing this sort of piecing together of all the information. I don't really see the police doing too much on that end. 

[00:48:31] Stephanie: It's so unfortunate that the police, like we've seen in so many other cases that they just hide things, or they don't look into things that well, and they just kind of brush it off, like, yeah. "So he's missing. So whatever." It's like, I feel so bad for the mom cause she's trying so hard herself to do all the investigation and nobody is helping her out. It's like, it must be so frustrating. 

[00:48:54] Katie: And when he's talking, when he's talking to that police officer under the bleachers, maybe it was a real police officer and they're involved in this whole recruiting kids for the sex ring. So that could be why they're, they're like, well, we're not going to help you find him because we're a part of it.

[00:49:14] AJ: Yeah. And like I said, I do go a little bit more into that sort of stuff, but yeah it is possible " this police officer met Johnny and who, like I said, we don't know what the conversation was that he and this police officer had under the bleachers. So, you know, in that time, Johnny could have been saying, "Oh I have a paper route and I do this." And then maybe the guy was like, "Oh, maybe you should go do your paper route alone the next time you go." And that's why the next day Johnny asked if he could go alone which he never did before... 

[00:49:37] Katie: Maybe to lure him out. I think it'd be kind of weird for the police officer to be, "Oh you should go out on your own." I feel like there could have been a story. Something like, "We need your help solving a case, but we need you to not be with your parents because they won't let you talk about this kind of thing. So if you come out on your own and come and talk to me, then you can help with this case and you could be a detective." And maybe that's why he's like, "This is exciting and I want to be a police officer when I grow up." Cause like, what would the police have said to him to make him that excited about being a police officer? So I feel like it was something like that, but that's just what comes to my mind. 

[00:50:15] AJ: Yeah. And that's why I think that conversation he had with the police officer is important somehow in this, because yeah, he was super excited. He wanted to be a police officer. Whatever their conversation was like, made him excited enough to want to be a police officer and just kind of act weird. Like again, is it a coincidence that he just happened to ask to go alone on his paper route? Like, soon after this one encounter with a police officer when he never did for the year before. Like it's just weird. Am I, again, going to believe that thats just a coincidence as well? Like at some point it's like, there are coincidences, but at some point when it's like coincidence after coincidence after coincidence, it's like at some point you have to stop and think like there might be something more here. The main police chief could be just trying to cover up. Maybe someone in the police department who was involved, or maybe it's the whole police department who was involved. And that's why, like, who really knows? No one really knows basically, is what it comes down to. 

[00:51:12] But then in 1989, one of the most important parts of probably the whole investigation, I would say, or one of the most important people that is kind of in play here is a man named Paul Bonacci comes into the picture and like I said, is perhaps the most important witness in the entire case. So Paul comes forward and claims that he was a victim of the same child sex trafficking ring that Johnny was involved in and says that he was there the morning that Johnny was abducted and involved in the kidnapping, using chloroform in order to subdue him. At the time of his confession, Paul was incarcerated in Nebraska for child sex abuse. So he had committed some acts of child sex abuse against other children, and that's why he was incarcerated, but he was also a victim of child sex abuse for years when he was younger, starting from when he was as young as six years old. All at the hands of this alleged child sex ring that he was claiming to be a victim of. Paul gives detailed and deeply troubling accounts of the abduction and what exactly happened during his captivity. Paul claims that he was coerced by his captors to sexually abuse Johnny on camera and goes into much more detail, which I'm going to spare all of you from those details, but you know, you can probably imagine what it is. So he goes into like graphic detail about some of this stuff that he was forced to do. And so it might be instantly easy to just write Paul off as being someone who just in prison and trying to inject themselves into this highly publicized case for fame or attention, or maybe bargaining power in his own legal case, like who knows. But details that he provided about marks that John, Johnny had on his body were impossible to know unless you personally knew him. So for example, Johnny had a scar on his tongue. He had a birthmark on his chest and a white scar on one of his legs above his ankle. Also Paul correctly identified the fact that Johnny would sometimes stutter or stammer when he got upset. So these are all details that line up and that are corroborated by his, Johnny's family. Noreen is convinced that Paul's accounts of the abduction and his interaction with Johnny are 100% legitimate because of the descriptions of these unique body features. And the police never took Paul's account seriously. They never really interviewed him at all during the course of this investigation. So they pretty much wrote it off as he was lying, he was suffering with lots of problems and just was not a credible witness basically is what their account was. So it was actually Noreen, she had hired a private investigator and she was really trying to get to the bottom of what happened to Johnny. So it was really her and her PI that took the lead in following up and interviewing Paul themselves. And then the TV show America's Most Wanted got involved in 1992 in order to get to the bottom of these claims by Paul Bonacci. So there are several corroborating witnesses and fellow victims of the ring who back up Paul's claims as well. And during all this, Paul describes a house where much of the abuse took place and he accurately describes an underground bunker where he and all of these children were kept. So during a part of America's Most Wanted, you know the cameras are rolling and part of the episode is they go and they visit this house that Paul had been describing with this underground bunker and all of this stuff. And as they pull up to the house it is exactly as described by Paul. And as they're walking up to the house, he gets visibly anxious and terribly upset. You know, clearly showing that he's suffering from some sort of PTSD or severe trauma from whatever happened in that house. They show the video footage where he almost can't even walk any further. He's breathing heavily and he's just having a breakdown basically on TV. And it's, it's kind of hard to watch, but unless Paul is an amazing actor, I'm kind of inclined to believe him based on this reaction. Like, I feel like that's just not a reaction that you could fake, especially to the level that he is doing it. And then when they go inside, so he describes like this grate, where if you pull up the grate it leads to this underground bunker. He describes that perfectly and then when they go into this underground bunker, they find children's initials carved into the wood underneath this house. And Paul had described all of that before. And then when they go into this bunker, all of the initials are there for all these kids. And basically every part of his story is lining up exactly as he told it. So do you guys believe Paul? Like what do you think of this part of the story? 

[00:55:55] Stephanie: Those are really specific details of this house and this bunker. So, and if that's actually true and they show up, I feel like it's kind of hard not to believe it. I don't know what the, I don't know what the place looks like or what he was like in the video, but I feel like to have those specific details is pretty evident that something awful went wrong in the house.

[00:56:17] Katie: Unless it was Paul's house and he made all this up and then brought them over there, which is a weird thing to do. But to me, it seems like it actually is true. I feel like I want to believe him. Do they ever figure out whose house it actually was? 

[00:56:34] AJ: Yeah. Again, they don't really go into detail about that. They just say that he described this house and when they show the house in the video clip it's on YouTube. We'll link it in the show notes so you can see it. But they pull up to this house and it is just in some rural, like, I don't know, it looks like a desert basically and they don't really go with nothing I could see, and nothing I could find went into detail about like whose house it was. Cause that's what I was thinking like, and I knew Katie, you were going to ask that question for some reason I just knew that that was the question you would ask. But, cause I'm like, oh, you can just trace track whose house that is like find out who the deed belongs to or whatever, but like there's no information about that. So I don't know whose house it is or anything like that, but so yeah, you could say like, oh, if this was maybe Paul's house, he grew up there, he knew about this bunker and that's why he could describe it in detail perfectly. But then when you have that also lined up with details about markings on Johnny's body that no one would know. How does he know that? He has to know who Johnny is? So then it's like, if he did know Johnny, it would have to be from being abducted or being in captivity with him. So if that's true, then it's obviously probably true that it was in this underground bunker, like. It's easy to make that connection between those two things.

[00:57:43] Katie: Yeah. The fact that he knew the marks on Johnny's body, that's, what's kind of seals it for me. Cause there's no way that's a coincidence. You don't make that stuff up and it happened to be true. So that seems like super legit and it just bothers me that they can't figure out whose house this is. If the police were involved, then they, I think they'd be able to do that. But because it's maybe just this PI then they can't get that information, but that it at that bugs me. . 

[00:58:09] AJ: Yeah, that does kind of show the limitations that they have with just being the PI. And it's America's Most Wanted, you know, they're like legit, but they're not the police. So they don't have probably power to do that. So that goes to show you that if they had the police involved, like this could have been solved really easily. Because obviously it's not that hard to find a land deed or find out who owns that house. Like that's not a hard thing to do. And I'm sure they made some attempt to do that. I don't know for sure, because they don't go into detail about that, but I'm assuming that they tried and weren't able to. 

[00:58:42] Katie: But also even today, can't they go back and be like, we can figure out now whose house that was. Why doesn't somebody do that? Somebody do it. 

[00:58:51] AJ: That's their call to action for this episode. Somebody track down that land deed. I don't know. And although I will say an open saying, there's a lot of sources on this. That is true, there's a lot of sources, but there's not a lot of like legitimate sources. So a lot of it is Reddit forums and podcasts, and there was a documentary film and there was a book that Noreen wrote, but again, that was self-published. So there's not a lot of actual legitimate sources. Like there's no, there is very little to actually go on. So there's a while there's a lot of information. It's hard to know what's actually true and what isn't. But I mean, this is video footage of Paul Bonacci on America's Most Wanted so we know that's true. And Paul was in jail. Like we know certain aspects of this are true. We just don't know. 

[00:59:38] Stephanie: And did you say it was a high profile case back when it happened? 

[00:59:42] AJ: Well, I mean, he was on milk cartons like around the country, so it must have been at least, and people do, and that's the thing I'm thinking of, like, was it high profile enough where this person is running out of the bushes in Oklahoma is saying he's Johnny Gosch. Like, is that a name that everyone would know that by saying that name, you would know what he's talking about. Because it, if it wasn't Johnny Gosch, then why would they say Johnny Gosch, unless that was a name that was out there. So if that's the case, then obviously it was pretty high profile. 

[01:00:13] Katie: If you remember, this is a time before social media and before everybody had the internet. So it wouldn't, it's not as easy for something to be high profile. You can't just hear a name and go Google it. So I feel, you know, if this happened now, obviously be a lot more information in detail and people being able to figure stuff out, but because it was back then it's, it's, I don't know, it's just harder. 

[01:00:36] AJ: Yeah, that's true. And it might've been on a lot of like local PD, or local news in Iowa and stuff, so it might not have been national. I mean, I know the milk cartons were national, but I don't know. But obviously this woman in Oklahoma, when she saw this person saying I was Johnny Gosch knew that name, or maybe not, maybe it was just weird cause she saw this person running out, being dragged into the bushes. So maybe you shouldn't even think, oh, it's Johnny Gosch, it's just, this is sketchy. And it just happened to be Johnny Gosch's name. But, I don't know. I'm inclined to believe Paul Bonacci because, like you guys said, that the markings on his body, like that's just too much of a coincidence. Like you can't know that unless you'd know Johnny. So I don't know where the house fits in. I don't know if he's telling the truth about the house. Obviously something happened in that house. If you watch the news clip or the video footage of Paul, it has to, something happened in that house because the way he's reacting is a very visceral reaction that I feel like you just can't fake. And there's people who say that they believe a hundred percent believe what he's saying, just based on his reaction. So...

[01:01:40] Katie: Is Paul still alive today? 

[01:01:42] AJ: They interviewed him in the 2014 documentary. So as of 2014, he was still alive. And he basically, he says all of this again in the documentary. And I think he's married now. He's out of jail, he's married. So he has like a somewhat normal life, but he does talk about all of this information. So he's still staying, sticking by the story. And that has never changed. His story has not once changed. The details are exactly the same as it has always been. 

[01:02:03] Katie: Have they figured out whose house this is? I feel like if, if somebody knows something, I'm obsessed with this house now, because if it's actually a, still a house and people know where it is, he knows where it is. If I saw a house and I knew something happened there, like, figure out whose house it was back then. You can do that. Somebody do it. Like, you know what I mean? Somebody has to know what the house is and where it is. Put it on Facebook. Someone will figure it out. 

[01:02:30] Stephanie: Like can't Paul tell you where the house is? I don't understand why.

[01:02:33] AJ: I mean, I'm sure he did because he led them there. Like he knows, but I just, he does remember, I just, it's not, I, it's not easily accessible. Like I don't, maybe it's a ... They didn't give an address on that. They didn't give an address on the documentary. So I don't know, like I can't Google map it. But... 

[01:02:47] Stephanie: Somebody is hiding something, if they're not going to give out that. 

[01:02:49] Well, they're showing, they show clips of the America's Most Wanted episode in the documentary, which shows them at the house. So if you watched the documentary or yeah, and it looks like it's kind of like a rundown house, I guess, but then they go, they show the underground bunker in the documentary as well.

[01:03:07] Katie: It's likely that it's not even still there anymore. 

[01:03:09] AJ: Yeah. When you look at, when you look at it, it looks like there's just plopped in the middle of nowhere. Like there's no houses around to be seen when you look at it. Literally it's like the middle of the desert and I don't see a house near it. So it's just very secluded, which if, I guess it's going to be used for what it was used for, I guess you would want it to be isolated like that. So it's not surprising, but just weird. And like you said, Katie, it should be fairly easy to figure out who owns this house, but the no's in no way in any part of this is the police actively looking and checking out any of these leads. As far as I can tell, it's all Noreen and her private investigator that she hired who are doing 99% of any of this investigation stuff. So just sad. 

[01:03:51] Katie: It bothers me that they don't know whose house it is. Like somebody, figure it out. Who owns it? 

[01:03:56] AJ: Yeah, because that seems like that would crack the case right there. But also too, if it's going to be, if it's going to be as bad as like what it was used for then I'm sure there's a way for them to cover up who actually owns it. There's probably like faked forged documents. So it probably wouldn't lead anything anyway, because that seems too obvious. Right? But so who knows, maybe they did try and it was a dead end and it just never amounted to anything. And that's why it's never been put out there. 

[01:04:23] All right. So that's where we're going to end it for part one of our discussion on this case, but just know that it gets a lot crazier.

[01:04:31] So hop on over to part two, which is also going to be released today. So you can keep on listening and trust me, there's even more twists and turns in this case. More alleged sightings of Johnny and we get into all of it. So you don't want to miss part two, if you don't know what's coming up in this case, just get ready because it is going to be a wild ride. And if you do know about this case, still tune in because you might learn something, and if you want to hear our discussion and our thoughts about this controversial case, then be sure to check that out. So you can always follow us on social media @crimefamilypodcast on Instagram or on Twitter @crimefamilypod1 and on Facebook at Crime Family Podcast and send us an email with your feedback, your theories about this case, or maybe suggestions for a future case. So, you can email us at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. So head on over to part two guys, and we'll see you there. Thanks so much for listening. Take care. .