S03E03: THE MURDER OF ALEX RODDA

S03E03: The Alex Rodda Case 

[00:00:00] Stephanie: Coming up on this episode of Crime Family.

[00:00:03] ...is the Alex Rodda case and this case is about a 15 year old boy from the UK whose online relationship turned deadly. 

[00:00:10] ...a group of so-called Russians were claiming to have kidnapped Alex and were keeping him in the back of their van and that they were going to beat the gay out of him.

[00:00:19] Katie: ...it was almost like he planned it as well, too. Right? Cause he went out there with that wrench intentionally and kind of groomed Alex for like six weeks through all of this. So he was definitely knowing what he was doing and knowing that it was wrong because he was trying to hide it the whole time. So... 

[00:00:31] AJ: ...kind of surprised that he expects Matt to be just so willing to expose their relationship when he knows that he would go to jail for doing so.

[00:00:41] Stephanie: She studies the picture to see if she can recognize any of the surroundings. 

[00:00:46] Katie: Not in this case. He was like smarter than he was trying to let on that he was.

[00:01:48] AJ: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Crime Family. I am your co-host AJ and I'm here as always with my sisters, Stephanie and Katie. And in this week's episode, Steph is going to tell us about a case that she has ready for us. So Steph what's the case?

[00:02:03] Stephanie: My case today is the Alex Rodda case, and this case is about a 15 year old boy from the UK, who's online relationship turned deadly. Social media has opened up a whole new world for potential exploitation and for young people and teens especially, who are still trying to figure out who they are and trying to express themselves. They see social media as an exciting way to meet new people, whether it's friends or for romantic purposes. And they are navigating the online world as it can be fun and exciting, but it also can be stressful and also very dangerous. And all of these things were true for Alex Rodda. So, Alex Rodda was just this 15 year old high school student from Cheshire, United Kingdom. He had like a really large group of friends that surrounded him in his everyday life and supported him through the struggles that many teens have gone through growing up. But Alex was lucky to have such a supportive family and a group of friends when he came out gay, when he was just 13 years old. There were times when Alex would be picked on or someone randomly would yell homophobic slurs at him. But because Alex was so openly gay and really, he just really embraced it, that really triggered a lot of hate for complete strangers and which is unfortunate because as we know in today's society, there's just a lot of angry people out there. But it kind of shows that like how Alex was such a brave kid and just at 13, how he came out to be gay and it was just, he didn't care what other people thought, because he knew he had such supporting friends and family. Alex knew that his parents and friends loved him for who he was. So none of the other stuff really mattered to him. Alex loved social media. He loved to sing and dance and be goofy and just be like a character on Tic Tok and Instagram ,so harmless fun stuff that most people do on a day-to-day basis. And it's actually on Facebook that Alex meets a man named Matt Mason. And when he first starts talking to Matt, he tells one of his friends named Georgia and Georgia actually knows Matt because they were the same age and they went to the same school. So Matt's actually a bit older than Alex. He's 18, which is technically an adult while Alex is still a minor. So when you really think about it since Georgia was Matt's age, it probably didn't feel weird or creepy to Alex, but kind of exciting for Alex that an older guy was showing interest in him. And also Alex had never been in a real relationship before. So it was kind of all happening for the first time for Alex. However, Georgia says that she had no idea that Matt was interested in guys at all. He never expressed any interest out in the open that he liked men. So she was a bit surprised when Alex told her who he was talking to and had struck up an online relationship with. Matt was in college at the time he met Alex, living in a different city, going to a different school and his family was quite wealthy, while Alex's family was middle-class. So it seemed that without social media, these two would have never actually met, or at least they wouldn't have not have been able to stay in touch the way they did. So while they're texting and messaging, they're just flirting at the beginning, it quickly escalated with Matt being the aggressor, sending naked pictures of himself to Alex and explicit videos. Alex's friends say that because he was so young, he kind of took the things that Matt was doing as a joke and thought like, maybe they were funny, when Matt probably was really trying to, to impress Alex or was serious about what he was doing.

[00:05:42] So Alex told all of his friends about Matt and they all knew he was older than Alex. And they all knew as well that Matt didn't want anyone else to find out about the relationship. Matt was keeping it a secret from everyone he knew, especially of course his girlfriend. And so the relationship moved from Facebook to Snapchat, where images and videos disappear within like minutes. So Matt felt like he could send graphic photos and videos to Alex without running the risk of there being any sort of evidence out there about the relationship. But Alex still was able to save those pictures, which he did. So Alex found out eventually that Matt had a girlfriend through Instagram. He wasn't very happy about it, obviously like Matt was keeping this from Alex for a reason. I am sure he just wanted Matt to break up with her or if he felt guilty about going behind her back. But for whatever reason, he kept pressuring Matt to tell his girlfriend about them and even threatened to tell her himself. So these were some of the text messages that Alex and Matt were exchanging back and forth.

[00:06:48] Alex told Matt.

[00:06:49] Alex: You have a girlfriend that loves you. There's no need to speak to me. Look, your girlfriend loves you. She doesn't know what to think because she and you were together for two years. Like, what the fuck! You need to tell your girlfriend the truth, Matt, because I already have. Don't lie. I've got the proof. I will literally put your D on my story if you don't stop lying. 

[00:07:12] Matt: I'm talking to her. Please, don't Alex. 

[00:07:15] Stephanie: So you can see that the relationship between Alex and Matt is starting to go downhill and spiral out of control because Alex is not trusting Matt. Matt has a girlfriend and he's trying to keep his, his life private, where Alex wants to continue on, but he can't, if Matt's not going to be open about his sexuality and talk to his friends and family about it. Matt was so desperate to keep Alex quiet that he started giving him money. He would give him 50 pounds not to say anything and then just continually keep giving him money more and more. And eventually it ended up being around 2000 pounds before Matt said he couldn't keep giving Alex money, which I think is totally wrong. Like just come clean. Like I get, it might be, it must be hard for Matt to expose his sexuality like that, but like giving somebody hush money is not really the way to do it. 

[00:08:07] AJ: But also yeah, it's like, okay, you can see he's giving him this hush money because he doesn't want to, you know, come out or whatever. But not only that, if he would also have to come clean about the fact that he's in a relationship with a minor, which obviously he doesn't want to do. So I think, yeah, it's partially that he just doesn't want to come out, but also you know, he would go to jail for being in a relationship with Alex. So I think that's probably more what's at play here. 

[00:08:32] Katie: And now also, like from the outside, looking in, it almost looks like Matt is paying Alex to be with him and like for sexual acts and stuff. That's just what it looks like, whether that's true or not. But I mean, And now Alex is like in this relationship or he's doing stuff with an older man, that's giving him money. So it was just like, just keeps getting worse and worse as it goes on. 

[00:08:55] AJ: But also I feel too that Alex, he's also putting Matt in a bad position too. He must understand why Matt wouldn't want to come forward. He knows that their relationship is illegal. So I'm kind of surprised. I mean, I guess it just shows his immaturity. I mean, he's only 15, but I'm kind of surprised that he expects Matt to be just so willing to expose their relationship when he knows that he would go to jail for doing so. I don't know. I just think that's a little, a little strange for Alex to kind of expect that, but I don't know.

[00:09:26] Katie: Wait, so would 18 be considered an adult then?

[00:09:29] AJ: Yeah. 

[00:09:30] Katie: Okay. 

[00:09:31] AJ: Well I mean, 18 is an adult, but I think the age of consent is 16 in the UK. So if Alex was 16, it would be fine. But the fact that he's 15 and he was he's like a minor.

[00:09:41] Stephanie: I also find it weird that his friends, like Alex's friends knew of Matts' age, and yet they didn't seem overly concerned about the relationship. And even though they knew that it was wrong for them to be together.

[00:09:56] AJ: Well, yeah, like his friend Georgia knew, knew Matt so knew he was 18. So it's weird that she would be kind of okay with it. 

[00:10:02] Katie: Yeah. But I mean, because she's friends with Alex, like she, they probably don't think that it's that big of a deal. Like, I mean, he's only three years older and they probably just weren't thinking about it in that sense. Maybe even if they weren't actually like physically having sex, maybe it wasn't as big of a deal as if they're just sexting, which I think is still illegal. An adult sending like pornographic pictures, to a minor, I think is illegal?

[00:10:29] AJ: Yeah, it would, it would be considered like child pornography? Wouldn't it? 

[00:10:33] Katie: Well not if Alex wasn't sending him. 

[00:10:35] AJ: Oh, so it was just one sided. Like Alex, wasn't sending Matt pictures?

[00:10:39] Katie: I mean, as far as I could tell, when I looked into this, that's all I could tell was that it was mostly Matt sending Alex pictures. 

[00:10:46] AJ: Which is still illegal.

[00:10:47] Katie: Yeah. I don't think an adult can send naked pictures to a minor of themselves, like that is illegal. So yeah, it definitely crossed some borders, but it probably felt like it wasn't that bad because it wasn't like a 50 year old man. Right. It was like, oh, he's only 18, and I went to high school with him. Like, that's probably what Georgia's thinking. Right. So it barely crosses the line. But it does. 

[00:11:07] Stephanie: So yeah, so things started to, like I said, spiral out of control, like they were not getting along. Matt, wasn't being truthful to everybody. So on the evening of Thursday, December 12th, 2019, Alex had plans to meet up with Matt. So before Alex even went out that night, he FaceTimed a couple of his friends to tell them that he was going out with Matt. He said that they were going to grab something to eat, but what instantly got his friends really concerned was when Alex said that Matt was wanting to take him to a special place out in the field, by the woods. They just thought like, why are you going to take them to a field? Like what's so special about a field?

[00:11:44] AJ: I mean, that just sounds creepy. Like I'm going to like take you to a field. I mean, if that's a lie, I mean, come up with something better than that. Why would you expect somebody to want to go with you? It's oh, I'm going to take you to a special field. Um, no, thanks. 

[00:11:58] Stephanie: I could see if it was, if you were going to like have a picnic or like go see the sunset or whatever, then fine. That's fine. Just to say, oh, we're going to go to a random secluded place in a field somewhere. 

[00:12:11] Katie: Yeah. That's what I initially thought too, was have a picnic out in the field, but they were going out for dinner first. I don't know, maybe going to a field afterwards for dessert or something, but that, yeah, like you said, even like watching the sunset, I can see how it kind of could be construed as this is like my special place out in a field. I don't know. 

[00:12:28] AJ: I, especially too, I feel given sort of what they knew was going on between Matt and Alex like that it was a little bit going downhill. Based on what you've described so far, I don't know if his friends were, knew exactly what was going on between them. That like there was this tension, but knowing that it was kind of going downhill, then the fact that, oh, I'm going to take it to this special place. Like that just screams red flag to me right away. It's like, oh, you guys have been kind of arguing back and forth and there's this sort of underlying thing going on, and then he just wants to take you to the secluded place. Like everything about that just seems red flag. 

[00:13:02] Katie: Yeah. And from what I know as well, at least some of his friends knew that Matt was paying him to keep quiet. And so they obviously knew there was like tension going on, but I don't think most people have red flag goes up and been like, he's going to murder you out in a field. Right? You probably just think, I don't know, that's probably just not what they were ever thinking. So even though they're like, don't go, doesn't seem like it's legit. They weren't worried enough to be like, we're going to call the police if you go. 

[00:13:31] AJ: Yeah, I guess you don't really know. It's only in retrospect when you look back and you're like, oh, they really probably shouldn't have done that or shouldn't have let them go. But I guess at the moment, you're, you're not thinking worst case scenario.

[00:13:42] Katie: Yeah. But they did know enough to be like, you probably shouldn't go out to this field, Alex. They knew enough to tell him that, but you know, he wasn't thinking. 

[00:13:50] AJ: So it's weird though, if they were saying that, obviously, if they didn't think that he was going to be killed, why would they say don't go? Like, what else did they think was going to happen? Like, obviously they knew he shouldn't go cause something's going to go down. But if it wasn't going to be, oh, he's going to kill you, then what did they think? 

[00:14:06] Katie: I think one thing that they were probably thinking as well was that maybe gave them a red flag was that Alex was very out there with Instagram and things like that so that was kind of him. But Matt was going to school for agricultural sciences or something like that and his family was a farming family. So I feel like maybe Matt thinking that a field, is a special place, maybe isn't that far of a stretch, cause he's a farmer and fields are kind of his thing. So I don't know.

[00:14:35] AJ: Yeah. So maybe that was right in the realm of possibility for him, but just, I guess from an outsider's perspective, it seems super sketch, but obviously, not as sketchy enough to make him not go.

[00:14:48] Katie: His friends didn't have an actual address to where he was going to be so if something happened or they needed to pick him up, they wouldn't actually know where he was. It was just a random field. So maybe that's kind of what they were thinking in their head. 

[00:14:59] Stephanie: Going back to where Matt s' family are farmers and Matt is going to school for agricultural, I feel like going to a field is familiar to Matt and it's kind of like where he knows his surroundings.

[00:15:13] Katie: Yeah. Matt's like, I found this awesome field and Alex is like, okay, that sounds like Matt.

[00:15:18] AJ: I guess. Yeah. And who knows? Maybe that was a normal thing that he would say a lot. We don't really know. 

[00:15:26] Katie: That's true. We don't really know that much about Matt at all. 

[00:15:29] AJ: You could have seen many fields over this period of time. It could have just been a normal day.

[00:15:35] Katie: Yeah, maybe he talked about fields a lot. We don't know? 

[00:15:38] Stephanie: Yeah. Like we said, could be don't maybe don't know much about Matt. So despite Alex's friends not wanting him to go with Matt to this field, Matt did pick up Alex that night at around 5: 45, and Alex even told his mom he was going out and that he would see her later and off he went and got into Matts' vehicle to what he thought was a date, but he never expected that this was where things would turn tragic for him. So later on that night, around 9:00 PM, Alex's mom calls him as she's leaving a restaurant, but it goes straight to voicemail, but Alex's mom is not concerned at this time because that's normal. But when she gets home and she still can't get ahold of Alex, she then starts calling Alex's friends. And when they don't know where he is, and he's not where he said he was going to be panic sets in. Alex would never leave his house without his phone charger so his phone would never die, so they knew that that wasn't the problem. And his friends knew that he would never lie to them about where he was going. So when he hadn't shown up, they knew that something was wrong and that something was not good. So by 10:00 PM that night, all of Alex's friends have gathered at his house with his mom trying to brainstorm on what to do. And they had posted on social media that Alex is missing and one of the posts gets around 200,000 shares. So that's how fast the word got out that Alex was missing. But his picture was out there and that's how his older brother actually finds out that he's actually missing. Alex's dad calls the police multiple times. He feels like they aren't taking it seriously enough because he has only been missing for a couple of hours. I think you have to be missing for 24 hours before it's considered a missing persons case.

[00:17:28] Katie: I don't know if that's true for minors. So I feel like if you're a minor, then if you're missing, it's like an automatic search starts.

[00:17:35] AJ: I think it depends because, well, spoiler alert, the case I'm going to be doing soon, it was a minor and they had to wait 72 hours, so that, but that's the whole thing we'll get into sneak peak. Um, but yeah, like, so I think it might depend on...

[00:17:51] Katie: How much of a minor they are. 

[00:17:52] AJ: Yeah. Or honestly it depends on like the police department or like the jurisdiction, like maybe some, police take it more seriously. Who knows? 

[00:17:59] Katie: Yeah. And I think in this case, Alex was a 15 year old boy. He's only been out for like three or four hours and his family can't get ahold of him, so like, the police are probably like, "Calm down. Maybe his phone died, you know, maybe he didn't get a ride to where he was supposed to go?" So I can definitely see where the police are coming from. But his family seems adamant that this isn't Alex, they know where he is every single minute of the day. And so it just seems the police aren't taking it seriously, but they know something's up. 

[00:18:26] Stephanie: So like, I'm like the police were probably doing their job and doing the right thing. Like, let's wait a little bit longer, if you can't get ahold of him, then, then come back and tell us. Cause like Katie said, he was a 15 year old boy. They're just not going to check in all the time. So I do see where the police are coming from, but then I can also see where his friends are concerned because he was such a big social media person that he was like always posting on social media and when they can't get ahold of him or he's not messaging them back then I can see why they were concerned.

[00:18:55] It wasn't long after Alex was reported missing that strange messages started coming through social media, to the family and to Alex's friends. A group of so-called Russians were claiming to have kidnapped Alex and were keeping him in the back of their van and that they were going to beat the gay out of him. Some of the messages read, quote, "this world is no place for homo gay" unquote. Another one said, quote, "hunting down, batty men", unquote and then the last one was quote, "okay, well the package is in transit now. We currently have the five buys for this boy" unquote. Alex's friends believe these messages and were in a full on panic mode. 

[00:19:38] AJ: Sorry. Were those posted on Alex's social media or just on social media in general? 

[00:19:43] Katie: Well, what I think, is that they were direct messages to the family and friends through their DMs.

[00:19:49] AJ: Just from like random...

[00:19:50] Katie: through Instagram... 

[00:19:51] AJ: Trolls?

[00:19:52] Katie: Yeah. They were claiming that they were a group of Russians that had kidnapped him and were going to sell him or something. 

[00:19:58] Stephanie: His friends actually believed these messages to be true. So they went into like full panic mode and they started driving around the city in a desperate attempt to find any clues to where Alex was being kept. So once the police got ahold of these messages, they were able to track down the IP addresses and found that it was just a group of nearby college kids who knew Alex or heard that Alex was missing. And for whatever, sick, stupid reason, they decided to be complete assholes and inject themselves into the case in just like a stupid idiotic way. Like who does that?

[00:20:33] Katie: I hate when I hear about this in cases where some random people just start doing random things to mess with the investigation. Like why? That doesn't make any sense, and they're obviously homophobic or they wouldn't be saying those kinds of things.

[00:20:45] AJ: And some people just have no life, like, and they get a thrill out of just, I don't know, some people, are just fucked. 

[00:20:53] Stephanie: And like, look at the waste of time. I mean, for the police that might not have been a wasted waste of time, but like for his friends driving her all around the city to find these, this group of people, when these people weren't really, wasn't really a thing.

[00:21:07] Katie: Yeah. Like they were looking for a van that he was being kept in, but it was a waste of time for the police too, because they were spending their time, just to find out that it was just some random people that had nothing to do with it. So it was a waste of time. Congrats for being assholes. 

[00:21:20] Stephanie: Like, I couldn't imagine like what his mom, like what Alex's mom was going through. Like, and his dad, like, they just want to know like where Alex is and then they have all these loopholes and these stupid assholes that think they are cool.

[00:21:32] Around 11:00 PM that night, Georgia even texts Matt and says that she knows that Alex was with him and asked him where he was? Matt tells her that he dropped Alex off at six o'clock at Holmes Chapel, and that Alex was going to meet up with some friends in Manchester, and he hadn't seen him since.

[00:21:52] AJ: But didn't he leave his house at like five something? 

[00:21:54] Stephanie: 5: 45 yeah. 

[00:21:55] AJ: And then he said he dropped him off at six. So they were in a field for 15 minutes. So that doesn't make sense. Like that's kind of a red flag right there.

[00:22:03] Katie: Also, I think what Matt was saying that he was just going to pick Alex up to drop him off at the train station or something. Like, that's all he was doing. But so the stories don't match up again from the beginning there, since Alex thought they were going out for supper, but then Matt's just saying he just dropped them off. So yeah. I don't know. 

[00:22:21] AJ: Oh, wait. Is the field thing separate then? That's the same time. 

[00:22:23] Katie: No, it's supposed to be the same night. They're supposed to be going out for dinner and then going out to the special field.

[00:22:28] Stephanie: Matt's just, his stories aren't matching up. He's just being sketchy.

[00:22:35] So around midnight, on the 13th of December, Alex's friend, named Yasmin, gets involved and she checks the train times from Manchester because that's where Matt said Alex had went. So there's a group of them waiting at the train station when the last train from Manchester pulls in, but there's no Alex. Yasmin also goes through Alex's Snapchats and finds a picture that he had posted that night from inside a car with a couple of hearts on the picture. So presumably he had intentionally posted that picture himself and nothing was wrong at the time. But she studies the picture to see if she can recognize any of the surroundings. But it's just kind of like a rural forest looking field.

[00:23:25] Katie: So the field thing was actually true then, I guess.

[00:23:28] Stephanie: Yeah, but good for her to try and see if she could like find, to see where they lived or whatever. So like around two in the morning, everyone starts to head home because really you can't search forever. They needed a break, and Alex's mom said she just knew he was hurt somewhere, but she couldn't get to him. And it was just, I can just feel like so heartbreaking. You can't just search throughout the night because the more you search, the more tired you are going to be, and like you are, you're not going to be focused enough to keep searching throughout the night and like, you know something's wrong, but you just can't find Alex. So I can't imagine what's going through their minds at this time. 

[00:24:09] Katie: Yeah. That feeling of just knowing they're out there somewhere, but you just cannot find them and you're searching, but you just don't know where to look. Like, I can't imagine how frustrating and scary that is.

[00:24:20] Stephanie: It's so heartbreaking for Alex's family and his friends, not knowing where he is, but knowing that something bad has happened to him.

[00:24:28] So it was just a few hours later at around 7:30 AM, on the 13th of December, that a body was found of a teenage boy in a rural location, just outside Ashley, by a garbage collector. When the police tell Alex's mom, they tell her the body matches the description, but they need someone to go down and actually identify the body. So sadly, they do make a positive ID that it is Alex, but Alex's brother, Adam, recalls the body looked nothing like Alex, because it was so badly beaten. But once word got out that Alex had been found, this is when Matt tries to flee and the police end up chasing him basically to stop him. With their vehicle, they have to do the, you know, like swerve moves they do in the movies to like...

[00:25:16] AJ: Yeah same, the same thing in the Facebook Killer case that I just did. They did the same thing to catch him. So... 

[00:25:23] Stephanie: They arrested him, and when they were searching his car, they found a bloody wrench in the trunk of his car with a bloodstained fleece sweater. And they also found Alex's jacket as well. I mean, if you're going to try to cover up a crime, don't have those items in plain sight. I don't know. I'm not trying to laugh, but I feel like if you're going to try to flee, don't have those evidence right in plain sight so people can find them easily. 

[00:25:48] Katie: Well, I think he probably thought he was going to get away with it because when I looked into this case a little bit, they were saying that he picked the spot where he did, because he thought it was pretty rural and nobody would ever find the body, which obviously they found it like a couple of hours later. He wasn't thinking about that kind of thing. So he probably thought he was gonna get away with it and like, didn't have to hide the stuff in his car. 

[00:26:11] Stephanie: Yeah, that's true. 

[00:26:12] So as the details of what happened that night unfold, this is what the police have found out. Matt claims that he took Alex into the woods and took a huge wrench with him. This is a 12 to 18 inch long wrench, and he said he took it there to scare Alex, to stop him from talking about their relationship and posting pictures online. Matt also claims that Alex attacked him first and pushed him to the ground and then to defend himself, Matt hit Alex with the wrench. Matt initially says he only hit Alex about a couple of times, but Alex was struck at least 15 times and he was unrecognizable. There, you can see there's some rage in there, if he's doing it like repeatedly 15 times. There's no need. That's kinda like overkill, I feel like. They found out that the blows to the head fractured his skull and the bone fragments penetrated his brain. Matt says when he left Alex, he was still alive. So who knows, Alex could have laid there in pain and scared, and for hours before he died. Could you imagine just leaving someone there to die? Like how cold-hearted is that? Over something, I don't know what? And I guess the relationship was tainted from the beginning, but I feel like killing somebody or hitting somebody 15 times in the head is just overkill. 

[00:27:28] Katie: And why would you, being exposed that you're gay be worse than killing this guy ?Where are your priorities? 

[00:27:37] AJ: Yeah, it's always so weird too, that people think, oh, if I just kill this person, all my problems will go away. This is the solution, when really it's, you're going to have way more problems as a result of you killing this person. So the, the logic is just so flawed. 

[00:27:51] Katie: I know. That's going to be your biggest problem. That you murdered somebody. So in some sort of way, you kind of have to have a little bit of sympathy for Matt, just because can you imagine how much turmoil is going on in his head, where he feels that this is the only solution is to kill Alex to cover up all this issues, all his problems, that just like that conflict in his mind would obviously just be, you know, unbearable. 

[00:28:17] AJ: The legal thing in place too. Like we were saying before, not only would it be exposing him, but also having to reveal that he was in a relationship with a minor. I mean, but I mean, should we say, oh, well, that's gonna be, that's gonna put me into legal trouble, but also murdering him is as well. More legal trouble. Right? Probably, you know, you get a life sentence for that. So I don't know. It's just kind of one of those things where you don't have the maturity, you know, he's only 18 or 19 at this time, whatever, you're still so young. Right? So you're making choices that aren't well thought out, or you don't have good problem solving skills and obviously you're immature. So, so that was just the solution that he saw as his best solution, which is sad. Yeah. So I do have a little bit of sympathy, but also, I mean, he killed Alex and it was, it can't have that much sympathy for him. Let's be real. 

[00:29:07] Katie: Yeah. And he committed this crime by doing all the stuff with a minor and then to cover up that crime, he committed an even worse crime. So probably at this point he was just saying he has to get out of it and that's the only way he knew how. So, yeah, and like you said, he, he was only 18 or even 19 when he got charged, but it's, it's still, it's not old enough to really be able to know the consequences of your actions in a way.

[00:29:32] AJ: But also, yeah, that is true. Like I was saying, you're 19, you're not mature enough, but also I feel like there are most 19 year olds out there know that you can't murder someone. So even though you're 19, it's, he's still obviously had something going on. Cause you know, most 19 year olds wouldn't do that. 

[00:29:50] Katie: Yeah. And obviously right from the , like he, he probably picked Alex purposefully because he was so outwardly gay. So he knew he was gay. So he was a safe person to kind of be like, but have this relationship online with, um, and he was younger, so maybe he thought he could manipulate him. And he thought he was smarter than him. So he know he wouldn't get caught. So I feel like he sorta planned it all out in a way kind of picking him, and he definitely groomed him throughout this whole thing. Like sending him money to keep quiet because he thought he could control him. So that's classic grooming. When you think about all the steps he took. 

[00:30:27] Stephanie: Going back to when they're in the woods and having that altercation, maybe Alex did push Matt to the ground. We weren't there, and we won't know, but still that doesn't cause for somebody to beat Alex over the head 15 times with the wrench. And I feel like if he had the wrench, like maybe he, wouldn't Alex see that if they're in the woods, it was quite a big wrench. So you can't really carry that in your pocket, like how? My first instinct, if I saw them, why do you have a wrench?

[00:30:57] Katie: I pictured it as being in his back pocket, underneath his shirt or his coat or something. But I mean, you, that wouldn't be comfortable to sit in, in your car. You'd have to kind of get that after you get out. I don't know. It just seems weird. Or maybe he had it and was like told Alex to get out of the car and was threatening him the whole way. I don't know. It just seems obviously he was planning to do something with that wrench the whole time. 

[00:31:18] AJ: Even if Alex did push him down, there were the means to kill it was there because Matt brought this wrench. So even if Alex pushed him down, it's like, you have, you know, Alex can push you down, but that doesn't mean that Alex was going to murder him. So I'm like, no. So it's not, self-defense. Like the only reason that wrench was there was because Matt brought it out there for this purpose. And even if Alex pushed him down to maybe punch him or whatever, like, I don't think Alex was going to kill him or, I mean, I doubt he was going to kill him. I mean I don't really know, but I doubt it. So all this whole situation was there and was the result of Matt's actions. So the fact that even if Alex did push him down, doesn't really make a difference. 

[00:31:49] Katie: And like Steph said, the reaction to someone pushing you to the ground isn't to beat them over the head 15 times with a wrench.

[00:31:55] Stephanie: So yeah, you guys brought up a good point about the whole relationship itself and how Matt was grooming Alex, because Matt had been like very calculating throughout this whole entire relationship and all this went down from them meeting, to the sexting and to the hush money and to Alex being murdered. So it all happened within like six weeks. So not much time, like they met online, they swap pictures back, well, they didn't swap pictures back and forth. Matt gave pictures to Alex and they were sexting and they were flirting and they were talking and they were meeting. And all this was like a month, even though at the trial Alex's family say that when Matt spoke, it sounded like he wasn't all there. They thought like maybe he has some type of learning disability or something, but the police found out he was still trying to play the victim. So like the jury and the judge or whatever, didn't really buy his story because he was just trying to play the victim when the victim was really Alex. 

[00:32:52] Katie: Well, that just shows how manipulating he was, because even at the trial, he was trying to pretend that he didn't, he wasn't smart enough to know what was going on. When clearly everyone that knew him knew that that wasn't how he actually acted. So like, he's obviously thinking things through very thoroughly to try and get out of this. 

[00:33:10] AJ: He had a wrench. I mean, I feel like that's all you need. Case closed. That's it. I'm on the jury. Like you don't bring a wrench out to a random walk in the woods. Like to me, unless you have an intention to beat somebody with it.

[00:33:22] Katie: Well, yeah. And I'm thinking like, even like a huge wrench like that. I don't know what you use giant wrenches for, but maybe to fix something in his car. So maybe he already had it cause his car was breaking down or his car broke down, but you don't bring that on a walk through the woods, regardless of it's in your car already.

[00:33:35] AJ: Yeah. Like let me just take this just in case I might need it, you know, to fix this bush over here. I don't know, like, why would you need a wrench? Like that's I think the fact that he had that on him, it's just proof enough that he obviously planned it. 

[00:33:47] Katie: Yeah, he definitely planned it, to like scare Alex at least, which is what he said anyway.

[00:33:52] AJ: Yeah, what he was, yeah, trying to scare him to like threaten him or whatever, but still, I mean, I guess, yeah, whatever. I don't know. I don't buy it. 

[00:34:00] Stephanie: So just weeks before he brutally murdered, Alex, Matt had also looked up on the internet, how to basically kill someone. He looked up how to push someone down the stairs. He looked up stories on missing kids in the area that were never found, and how to poison someone. Matt's defense is that he was suicidal and he was looking up ways to kill himself. But let's be real. Who's gonna look up, how to push, how to push myself down the stairs, how to kill, you're not gonna kill yourself by pushing yourself down the stairs that should ...

[00:34:32] Katie: Maybe to make it look like an accident you might.

[00:34:34] AJ: But he typed in how to push someone down the stairs?

[00:34:37] Stephanie: Yes.

[00:34:37] AJ: Like if he'd searched that, how to push someone down the stairs, not how do I fall down the stairs to make it look like suicide. Like, how do I push somebody down? It seems like you're intending to push somebody downstairs 

[00:34:47] Stephanie: And I feel like you're not going to poison yourself. I feel like that's a really long way to die. So ...

[00:34:53] Katie: Yeah. I don't think there's really any peaceful poisons out there that I can think of. Like painful. It'd be scary. It would be long drawn out. So, uh, that just wouldn't be a good way to go. 

[00:35:03] Stephanie: What he was searching for, it doesn't fit with his suicidal story is what I'm saying. So with all that, Matt, like nobody was buying his story. Nobody was buying his, he was suicidal. And the fact that he was planning this for some time just shows how calculating Matt could be and how he like planned this whole murder. It wasn't just like I went out there and I decided to kill Alex. He had this plan in his head before he went and picked up Alex. Matt was found guilty and was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole for 28 years.

[00:35:38] Katie: Also an update recently. Well, I guess like a year ago he appealed it and his sentence was reduced to 26 years in jail. So not a life sentence, still 26 years, but it was reduced. So I always find it interesting this line between when they get charged as a minor or when they get charged as an adult, because he's technically an adult. But when you think about it, I don't know, like your brain doesn't mature until you're like 25 years old or something. So it's like, how do you draw the line between one day you're a minor and one day, the next day you could be an adult. So it's just like your brains aren't even developed. So it's his crazy that like, maybe he wasn't fully mature enough to be charged as an adult.

[00:36:16] AJ: Yeah. It's, it's crazy to think like, yeah, like the day before, you know, if the age or adult is at 18, you're 17 and then within 24 hours, you're 18. And like your brain, your brain doesn't develop that quickly in 24 hours. Right? Like it's the same. You can make the same dumb mistakes you make when you're 18 versus 17. But like that one day is going to make the difference, whether you're charged as an adult or like, it's crazy to think. And like, obviously there has to be an age that they have to pinpoint, right? Like you can't just be this gray area forever. But, in those cases where it is like on the cusp, like it's kind of...

[00:36:47] Katie: Yeah, definitely. And if I think about if I was, if not, like I ever did anything serious at that age, but if I was ever like held accountable for some of the things I did when I was like 18, 19, those things could have come back to haunt me, if it was anything serious. You get written off at that age because, oh, you're just so young, still.

[00:37:05] AJ: Like I said before, I mean, he murdered someone, which is obviously not good for any age. So even though he was only 19, whatever, he still murdered someone which most 19 year olds know not to do. So. I mean, in that case he was wrong.

[00:37:18] Katie: That's true. Yeah. I would never have done something like that, when I was 19 for sure.

[00:37:22] AJ: Yeah. Yeah, like full disclosure, I've never murdered someone when I was 19, but, um, when I was any age, but you know, like, but yeah, like it's just, yeah, I mean, to be, the fact that somebody is held accountable for a decision that they make when they're 19, it's yeah, crazy. Even though obviously it was right in this case, because like I said, he murdered someone.

[00:37:44] Katie: It's almost like he planned it as well, too. Right? Cause he went out there with that wrench intentionally and kind of groomed Alex for like six weeks through all of this. So he was definitely knowing what he was doing and knowing that it was wrong. Cause he was trying to hide it the whole time. So not a good look. 

[00:37:57] Stephanie: You always hear that these cases, I can't think of one top of my head, but like, where kids are, are charged as an adult, but they're only 12 years old because of such a heinous crime. Like Katie said, where do you draw the line between adult and a minor? Right. Cause there are some cases in some places where you're 12 and you can be charged as an adult. 

[00:38:16] AJ: Well, yeah, and every country is different and every country has its own sort of rules. And it's just a weird kind of gray area. How to, yeah. Like there's so many intricate details of how they decide who gets charged as a minor, who doesn't. Like, the nature of the crime versus the severity and vice versa. I don't know. It's just, there's so many different factors that determine, and it's just kind of, it's like luck of the draw, like which country you're in, who your legal team is and what the, who the judge is at the time.

[00:38:46] Katie: But I also feel like if you plan a murder, and execute that murder and try to hide it, try to run. Then that kind of is like, you definitely had an intent to physically kill, hurt somebody. So you should be charged to the full extent.

[00:39:03] AJ: But also like if somebody does that, when they're like 10 years old, there's that argument it's like, well, you don't really know the severity of your actions or right from wrong. But again, I feel like most people know at 10 years old, not to kill someone, but there is that argument of how young is too young to know the severity of something. 

[00:39:24] Katie: But I mean, at 10 years old, you know, you know, not to like get in a fight or punch somebody in the face, like that's serious enough for most people. And so I feel like you beating somebody over the head. You don't know, you're not supposed to do that. And so if you don't know and you do it anyway, then there's obviously something going on, there's something wrong in your head. You know what I mean? 

[00:39:43] AJ: Yeah. But I think people use the argument of just, it gets in this, in this situation with the wrench, people will say, well, say like, for example, 11 year old did that and they say, well, yeah, like, you know that you can't do it, but when you're 11, you don't have control of your emotions. You're not emotionally mature enough to know. You let it overwhelm you and then it results in you acting out and killing someone, even though you'd know that you can't kill someone, but it results. You know what I mean? You know what I'm trying to say? 

[00:40:11] Katie: Right because you can't control your emotions enough to be able to stop yourself. 

[00:40:15] AJ: Yeah. Like an emotionally mature person would stop themselves before they did that, obviously. But I guess if you're maybe 10 and 11 and you have a ton of built up anger, you wouldn't necessarily have that ability the same way that...

[00:40:27] Katie: Well that happens to adults too. They go into this state of rage where they just murder somebody like their significant other or something. So that happens to adults as well. So I guess it could be like, well, why couldn't that happen to a kid as well? 

[00:40:39] AJ: Yeah, but I guess, in the kids, in a kid's case, they say, well, you can't expect a kid to be able to control their emotions in the same way that you could expect, you know, a 40 year old man to. You know, so I guess that's the argument they use. Obviously you'd know, as a ten year old not to kill someone. I'm not saying that I believe that a ten year old should be cleared if they kill someone. I'm just saying that that is the argument that is used, like in court, when there's a minor, who's someone who's 12 who murdered someone they'd use that argument of what is expected of of a ten year old versus what's expected of a full grown adult.

[00:41:15] Katie: Yeah. Like I guess that's why they have child psychologists because they studied this and know way more than we would ever know. But yeah, I think in Matt's case, like he obviously, like I said before, planned it out and was so calculating and kind of thought about every step of the way that you can't be like, oh, he didn't know what he was doing. He was only 18. Not in this case, he was smarter than he was trying to let on that he was. 

[00:41:39] AJ: Yeah. So, I mean, a 19 year old is still damn old to know that you shouldn't be killing someone. So, I mean, there's no sort of excuse that was going to get him out of that. But I think it's an interesting conversation to think about. Yeah. That line between when you're a minor, when you're not. And obviously every country is different. Like, I don't know the intricacies of the UK legal system, or any legal system, to be honest, but... 

[00:42:01] Stephanie: It's so unfortunate that Matt couldn't express his sexuality kind of like Alex did, and maybe he had all of this resentment and all of his pent-up anger, but that still doesn't justify him killing Alex because of their relationship.

[00:42:17] Katie: Yeah. You can just kind of feel that, like he felt his world as he knew it was coming to an end, because of Alex. Alex is going to expose him. And so that was the only way he could think of to stop it, which, you know, isn't rational in a rational person's mind.

[00:42:33] Stephanie: But it's also wrong for Alex to like blackmail, Matt to say, if you don't tell anybody I'm going to do this, like that's not right either.

[00:42:41] Katie: Well, yeah. It was like legit extortion. Cause he was getting money out of him in order to keep him quiet. But Alex's dad even said this, your 15 year old boy, a grown man is paying you money to keep quiet. Of course, you're going to like, want that and get that money and you're not going to be no, no, thanks. You know, so it's, it's, remember Alex is only 15, so. 

[00:43:04] AJ: Yeah, multi-tiered levels of wrong things. The relationship itself obviously was wrong and illegal. And then Alex extorting, Matt for this money was wrong and illegal. And Alex putting Matt in that position of, well, I'm going to tell everyone in your life that you're gay, unless you do it yourself. Like that's also unfair to put him in that situation. And then also the murdering is so it's like multi-tiered levels of just, it was a hot mess from day. One crazy case.

[00:43:32] Katie: Yeah it is. 

[00:43:33] AJ: So that was an interesting case. Thanks Steph for sharing that case with us. Another case that goes to show you the dangers of social media. We want to thank you. But there's something good you can do on social media, which includes following us there. So follow us on Instagram @crimefamilypodcast or on Twitter @crimefamilypod1, and we're on Facebook at Crime Family Podcast. And if you have a case suggestion or feedback for us, send us an email at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com.

[00:43:59] So yeah. Bye.