S03E01: THE MURDERS OF KYLEN SCHULTE & CRYSTAL TURNER

AJ: [00:00:00] Coming up on this episode of Crime Family, we will be covering another homicide investigation that took place in the shadows of Gabby Petito. 

Jia: Sometime before they went missing a night or two before, we don't know when, they were sleeping in their hammock outside of their tent, and it's obviously pitch black and it's nighttime, and he came and like kind of rummaged through their camp area and he didn't realize that they were in the hammock and they were awake and they watched him. 

Katie: What happened to Adam? Has he been ruled out? Like, there could have been a creepy guy and he maybe doesn't have anything to do with it, or maybe he does, I'm not sure, but I mean, Adam, you know, could be in the mix as well .Where is he?

Jia: There's four people in the same place, in the same parking lot, at the same time, it's Kylen and Crystal and Brian and Gabby and all four of them are later deceased. Like we have that, you know, somewhat of a confirmation that their paths did cross in that parking lot too. So there's [00:01:00] just all these bizarre coincidences that seem hard to believe.

AJ: Hi, everyone. Welcome to season three of Crime Family. We are so excited to be back for another season of interesting true crime cases and discussions. We've been working hard over this hiatus to research cases for you guys and this premiere is no exception. Today, we have the return of one of our season two guests Jia Wertz.

She's here to discuss her new podcast, Speaking of Crime, and more specifically about a case that was covered in depth in their most recent season. Now, if you're a true crime fan, and maybe even if you aren't, you most likely know about the Gabby Petito case, a murder investigation that took place just last summer. That case blew up and became one of the most high profile investigations in recent history after Gabby's remains were found and her fiancee, Brian Laundrie, disappeared and became the prime suspect in her murder, leading to an international manhunt.

We will not be covering the Gabby Petito case in depth in this episode because it's been so widely publicized and we feel there's nothing new we could [00:02:00] possibly add to that discussion, but, we will be covering another homicide investigation that took place in the shadows of Gabby Petito. 

Married couple, Kylen Schulte and Crystal Turner, were living the van life similar to Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie, travelling from campsite to campsite in the Moab area of Utah in the summer of 2021.

The couple was last seen on the night of August 13th, and, according to reports, the couple left town to return to their campsite just after midnight on the 14th. After not reporting to work on the morning of the 15th, friends and family members were concerned about the whereabouts of Kylen and Crystal, and only a few days later, family friend, Cindy Sue Hunter found the bodies of the two women in a creek near their campsite.

Autopsy reports and evidence suggests they were murdered four days earlier on August 14th. Their causes of death were determined to be from multiple gunshot wounds to their backs, sides, and chests. Eerily, friends later came forward to say that the couple had mentioned that there was a "creepy guy", who was camping near them [00:03:00] and that they planned to move campsites due to his creepy behavior and demeanor. No real description was ever given about this man, but he's believed to be a major person of interest. So far, police have never been able to identify or track him down, as far as we know. Their murder is still unsolved and has received a significant lack of media coverage when compared to Gabby Petito's murder, which has various connections. 

Not only did Brian kill Gabby near the same small town of Moab Utah within weeks of Kylen and Crystal's murders, but early on, it was suggested that the two crimes could have been linked due to possible run ins that Kylen and Crystal had with Gabby and Brian in the days before their deaths. Reports suggest that Gabby and Brian got into a physical altercation at the Moonflower Co-op where Kylen worked, and, there were rumors circulating that the two couples may have played pool together at a local bar shortly before the murders but this has not been proven. 

While one case captivated the world's attention with social media influencers and amateur sleuths tracking [00:04:00] movements and clues in real time in order to catch Gabby's killer, this other case captured very little attention, and, we want to know how a murder investigation that happened near the same small town, with intertwining timelines, could receive such little media coverage. For context, Moab Utah has a population of about 5,000 people, and all of a sudden, three murders happened within weeks of each other. While likely a total coincidence, there's no denying the connections that these two cases have. We chat with Jia about the facts we know about Kylen and Crystal's murders; the early connection to Gabby Petito; and the role social media plays in true crime cases of today.

Jia: A true crime series investigating mysterious unsolved cases. Real people. Real stories. Real crimes. 

Reporter: Earlier today, human remains were discovered consistent with the description of Gabrielle, Gabby Petito. 

Interviewee 1: It's [00:05:00] been so heavy on everybody's shoulders, you know, not knowing. My mother passed away not knowing, and that was her biggest wish was to find out. I miss her and I promise I am not going to stop until it is solved.

Interviewee 2: I know Brian Entin was here trying to talk to people and people won't talk. They're scared. 

Interviewee 3: People want a resolution and that's why there's conspiracy theories, but, you just have to remember there's families for both of them.

Interviewee 4: Oh, I feel we're getting really close. In those of course, the leads that I'm pursuing end up being a dead end, but, you don't know until you hit that dead end, right?

John: Tune into Speaking of Crime with your hosts, Jia and John. Available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to podcasts. We are @Speaking of Crime on Instagram and Facebook and @crime speaking on twitter.

AJ: So hi Jia. Welcome [00:06:00] back to the show. We're so excited to have you back. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and talk with us again. 

Jia: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you guys again and thanks for having me back too. 

AJ: No worries. So first of all, your podcast is awesome. We've all listened to it. We think it's really, really good. So I guess I just wanted to start off and ask you, what made you want to do the podcast and specifically on like the Gabby case and then on the Kylen and Crystal case? 

Jia: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the last time I talked to you guys, it was about my film and, while I was doing a promo for the film I interviewed with Speaking of Crime.  I was a guest on their show, and funny enough, like the same evening, after I had the interview, I hung up and I got a message from the hosts and they were like, "Hey, I know you're probably too busy to take this on and it is probably, you know, not feasible, but we wanted to ask anyways, would you like to be a co-host and join our podcast," and that's how I ended up joining. I immediately was like, "Hell yes", because you know, it's in the true crime genre and that's what I do. I [00:07:00] was like, it can't hurt to have more, you know, avenues, you know, where you're doing the same kind of work and so, I said, yes, right away not knowing really how much work it was or what I was getting into, cause it's a ton of work as you guys all know I'm sure. So that's how I got into it and then, since then, we did a couple of interviews together as myself as a host interviewing other people, as a co-host I should say, and then, we decided last September that we were going to revamp the whole thing. They wanted to do an audio documentary and not do like interview style podcasts anymore and that's when I really got involved because I have a documentary background. So, we redid everything from the branding, to the sound, to the logo,to the intro and everything, the whole style of the podcast and we relaunched in September of 2021. When we did that we were looking at cases, like what should we cover? We had no idea, and so we all, as co-hosts, decided we would just go do our homework, each bring like three cases to the table and [00:08:00] then talk about the cases and decide what we wanted to do and the Gabby case hadn't blown up yet. It wasn't, you know, huge. This was, we were planning this in like July, I believe of last year or August. It was August. Yea it had to have been August. And, you know, it had just happened. Gabby was just missing and she was missing at the time and no one knew where she was. That case was just really intriguing as obviously the whole world thought in the end, because it was this van life thing, you know, and there were videos and she was a YouTuber and so there was content where you kind of felt like you got to know her and so you felt more attached to her. So a bunch of us, like they were talking about it, like my co-host's wives as well, were involved in the conversation and we were all, we all thought that it was an interesting case and so we started there and then we, as you know, discovered that there's like these four other people that are missing in the exact same area around the same time and so that was bizarre back in August of last year. We were thinking, is there a serial killer? Like what's happening? And so because of the [00:09:00] multiple people in the multiple cases, that's what really got us, you know, interested in digging deeper. 

AJ: Yeah, and because I was wondering too, like if, yeah, you initially wanted to do the Gabby one, but then it kind of organically transitioned to the Kylen and Crystal one just because they were kind of closely connected or thought to be at the beginning. So that sounds like probably how it came about? 

Jia: Yeah,that's exactly how it happened because there was also Robert, there was also Keon, and then there was Kylen and Crystal and there was Gabby. So there was these, you know, five people. And, I hope I didn't miss anyone. I think there was five because the other cases we didn't go, you know, too deep into. We'd mentioned them in a couple of episodes. But yeah, it all happened naturally. And then Kylen and Crystal's also was just so bizarre because of the comments that they made to their friends the last night they were seen alive . Saying, you know," if we were murdered, it was this creepy guy" or whatever, it just, you know, it just makes you, it makes the hair on the [00:10:00] back of your neck stand up, you know, like what's going on?

AJ: Yeah. And, I know you touched on it a little bit too, but I wanted to ask, like, why do you think the Gabby case blew up so much compared to the Kylen and Crystal one because you know, you'd think Kylen and Crystal, you know, it was closely connected to at the beginning to one of the biggest cases in the last decade, for sure. So you'd think it would also have kind of the huge media following. But it didn't really, right?

Jia: Yeah I know, and it's so interesting and I don't have the answer to that, but it is very, very interesting. You know what, what you're asking because a lot of people, obviously there was that backlash that because she was a young white blonde girl, she got more attention and people of color don't get that kind of attention, but then Kylen and Crystal are both, you know, also white women and they didn't get that kind of attention. So, you know, that kind of debunks that a little bit. Not that it's not true. I know that is a fact and it does happen, but Kylen and Crystal didn't get that, that level [00:11:00] of attention and still are not and their families are working really really hard to try and get that level of attention so they can find evidence that they really badly need. So I'm not sure. I know other people have said that because Kylen and Crystal, kind of, they love the van life and they chose to live the van life, but they weren't well off. They were doing it to save money. It wasn't like they were well off and they redid a van and they went on this like Instagram van life trip that lots of people do. Right? It was a little bit more out of necessity for them. And so I've heard people say, or discuss anyways that maybe it's because they were, you know, not as well off and didn't have as much money and they were doing it more as a means of saving money and stuff like that. And then also, you know, they were a gay couple and so a lot of people have said that, that, won't garner the same level of attention. People will care less about them. And, you know, I don't know if it's a little bit of all of the above or, or why, why that happens with some [00:12:00] cases that they just kinda catch fire and others don't. But that's definitely the case, but why,, I haven't been able to put my finger on it.

AJ: Yeah. And like, I know you said that Gabby, you know, people felt like maybe they knew her a little bit more because she was kind of the Instagrammer, but it was my understanding, right,that she wasn't really like a big YouTuber. Right? Because she had only released a few videos. Right? Like she was kind of just starting out. Right?

Jia: She was just starting out. But I think because she had launched that one YouTube video, which was really well done by the way. Right? Because that went viral and people watch that through that video, they got to see her personality and seeing her personality, like, you know, people like dubbed her America's daughter. Like all these people were like, this could have been my daughter, this could have been my daughter, and that was kind of everyone's feeling and sentiment and I think obviously that makes people feel more attached to her, you know. Her parents also, you know, all four of them, you know, her mom and dad and then their spouses were so, so vocal [00:13:00] and also, so well-spoken, and so kind, and in every interview that they did, they were just, just so warm and, and your heart really went out for them. Maybe that had something to do with it too, because I know, a lot of Kylen and Chrystal's families weren't. I know Kylen's dad was, but other than his dad and his, I mean, sorry, her dad and her aunt, no one else was speaking up in the beginning either, you know, they weren't in the media and the public eyes. So maybe that had something to do with it. It's hard to say. 

Katie: I think also this might've been after it started blowing up a little bit, but it was kind of like, you could see the story unravelling as it was happening. It was like they were missing. And then like the, the police body cam came out. So everyone's like, you know, even people that weren't interested in van life were like, this is like a crime happening. And then those people that found her van, like they posted that video too. So it was like, here's another clue. So it was kind of like, we, like the audience was involved in the search, [00:14:00] which didn't happen with a lot of cases. So maybe that was like, what sparked interest too. It's like, we are in real time watching what's happening,

Jia: Yeah, you're so right. That's so true, and that body cam video was so long, first of all, and when people watched it, there was such a debate in the beginning of, you know, we're watching this domestic violence, you know, kinda people recognized it. People recognize the behaviors as this is domestic violence, and we're watching it and we're watching her kind of try and protect the person who was hurting her while other people were like, no, it seems like everything's fine. So that created this kind of, you know, juxtaposition and that debate between the public, which I think also you're right, definitely drove, you know, eyeballs to it and attention to it, for sure. 

AJ: Yeah, and you had all those, all the social media influencers weighing into, like people were, you know, going through their own, dashcam footage to see if they could spot like the van and [00:15:00] stuff. So I think you had that element too, where it's like, these random TikTok influencers were like posting videos. Right? And then people really felt like they wanted to be involved somehow. And everyone wanted to kind of be the one to, to break the case, I guess. 

Jia: Yeah. But what's crazy about that is that you're right a hundred percent, and then not only that, there was so many other, like at least, three or four people that I know of that came forward. They were like, "I saw them on the 23rd at this restaurant. I saw them on the 20th at this restaurant" and so on and so forth. So people were getting really involved, but, the flip side of that is, you know, Kylen and Crystal were missing also, and people must have, must have seen them camping or what have you for the few days that that creepy guy was around and all the family is asking for is anyone who was there to send in their dash cam videos and photos and whatever else they have in order to see if there's any images of a car in the area or of the creepy guy in the area. And, you know, it doesn't seem like they're having much luck and they're looking for [00:16:00] the same kind of support and the same kind of, you know, people coming forward with either stories or images or, you know, witnesses and they're not getting it.

AJ: Yeah, and that's because if you have to have all those people who are really seeing Gabby and Brian, it's like, they have to be seeing Kylen and Crystal too. It's a very small place. Right? So it is, it is bizarre. 

Jia: Well, the differences are, I guess, that Gabby and Brian were roaming around the town. Right? Whereas Kylen and Crystal left at 1:00 AM from their friend's house and went into the mountains. So it would be much fewer people that would've seen them in the mountains, but still like Moab, I think the population of Moab is 5,000 and they get 3 million visitors. So like, it's like 3 million people. Somebody has to be like, they're in the mountains. Everyone goes there to see those, you know, red rocks and stuff. So there has to be, there just has to be. 

AJ: Yeah, and one of the things too that we were trying to, like, I was just thinking about, was, like, kind of, the impact that [00:17:00] social media has. And I was trying to determine whether it was like a positive or a negative, cause you know, on one hand it's positive. You have all the huge, like attention on the case and everyone's following up, but then, on the flip side, it's like, you might get so many more people who are coming forward with random bogus things that like lead the police down maybe potentially wrong avenues. So I was trying to like weigh if it was like a benefit or a negative to have the social media, the way that it was?

Jia: Yeah, I would say it's a benefit because if you have nothing, you got nothing to go on. If you have too much stuff, at least you can decipher between, right, what you think is good and bad information. But for sure, we've talked to and interviewed Jason Jensen, the PI that's working on Kylen and Crystal's case pro bono. We've interviewed him quite a few times and he, he says that often, that he gets just so much information and a lot of it is speculation and that doesn't help in any way whatsoever, because it's just what you think happened and there's no, he's like there has to be some kind of proof that links this, you know, [00:18:00] otherwise it's just you thinking out loud kind of thing. And not only that, but he gets a lot of the same speculation, like repeated by different people because ,you know, how many scenarios are there that we can like come up with. And so, he says it takes up a lot of his time and it can be distracting and it can take up the time, especially when you have one person working on it, pro bono, you know, it takes, it takes up his time that he could be utilizing on actual leads and that. So it's tough. I'm sure. 

AJ: Yeah. I think obviously, yeah, it does have its benefits and its negatives, I guess everything in social media does right?

Katie: Because the Gabby case blew up, it's kind of like, it, it's almost like it's over, it's overshadowed kind of everything else that was going on. So we kind of heard maybe Kylen and Crystal's case or cases like their's, in that sense, as it was like, everyone's caring about Gabby. But also I feel like, because Gabby's case was so huge and [00:19:00] then Crystal and Kylen's kind of was intertwined that maybe it helped their case. Right? Because I feel like a lot of people probably wouldn't know about the Crystal and Kylen's case if it wasn't for the Gabby's case. So it kind of goes both ways I feel, and it's kind of hard to be like, oh yeah, well, it, it helped them but it hurt them as well.

Jia: Yeah. I'll tell you that the family has on multiple occasions said that if it wasn't for Gabby, that they wouldn't have the attention they've even gotten so far. So they feel very, you know, thankful for, for that, for sure. 

AJ: One of the biggest aspects of the Kylen and Crystal case, is the fact that the women had described the presence of a quote "creepy guy" near their campsite. They mentioned to their friends that if they were to be murdered, this is the guy responsible. But what started out as an innocent passing comment that was made in potentially a lighthearted way by the women became much more scrutinized when they did in fact end up murdered, not long afterwards. So who was this creepy guy and what made him creepy to [00:20:00] Kylen. So, I know you mentioned it a little bit, this "creepy guy", quote unquote "creepy guy".so ,can you just, maybe like talk a little bit about, because I just had a question in terms of like was there specific information like of what made him creepy or was it just his overall sort of demeanor or was there specific things that they had said he was doing that made them wary of him?

Jia: Yes, it was his demeanor. It was not really his appearance from what we know and we know very little because they only said a little bit to their friends. But it was his demeanor. I guess., some time before they went missing ,a night or two before, we don't know when, they were sleeping in their hammock outside of their tent and it's obviously pitch-black and it's nighttime. And he came and like, kind of, rummaged through their camp area, and he didn't realize that they were in the hammock and they were awake and they watched him and he, you [00:21:00] know, I guess did whatever he did. I don't know what, but he was lingering around and then he was also camping just too close as Kylen's dad, Sean Paul, explained it to us. He said that, in dispersed camping, there's like this unwritten rule where you give people enough room. You don't like camp right by them so that if they want to play loud music, or if they want to have a campfire late into the night, that's what dispersed camping is for. You can, you don't have to worry about neighbors. You can kind of do whatever you want. And this guy was super close to them, which was kind of, you know, just not the norm and then he also, he was so close that he left at one point and came back with more food, I guess, and more clothing and they could, you know, obviously Kylen and Crystal mentioned that, so they could see that he was close enough so that they could see that he came back with food and clothes and stuff, which is just too, too close. And so those were kind of the odd things, but for anyone to kind of go through your campsite in the middle of the night and that's just so creepy right? There's no other way to, to [00:22:00] describe that. 

AJ: And like they had mentioned to their friends, like they described him as the creepy guy and what's so sad too, is they mentioned that if anything were to happen to them, that this was the guy that would have done it right? Which probably just like, you know, a passing comment, you're not really thinking anything of it at the time, but in retrospect,it is very eerie.

Jia: Yes, it's so, so eerie and that's what the, that's what we've pieced together. You know the friends that last saw her have speaking, have spoken to Sean Paul and, but not to, and also to Crystal's family, not to us. They don't want their names to be out there. You know, they don't want to speak to people because they're, they think they know, the guy who did it is still out there and, you know, they, they're scared, of course. But what they told the families is that the girl said it and some of the friends that they were at Woody's Tavern with thought it was just kind of like it more of [00:23:00] a passing comment and they weren't taking it that seriously because if the girls thought he was really going to kill them, they wouldn't have went back to the campsite. So it was more like, oh, here's this creepy guy and it was more kind of an offhanded almost, you know, dark joke, I guess, maybe, but then, the last friend they saw, whose house they went to, she was very concerned and she begged them not to go to the campsite. She asked them to stay at her house. And they said no, because Ruth, Kylen's bunny was up there at the camp site still, and they didn't want to leave the bunny and so they said, no, no, we're going to go and she, you know, from what I've heard, she, she begged them not to go, but they went anyways and then they were supposed to come back to her house for dinner the next evening, and they never showed up. So that's how, one of the ways that the PI and the family have narrowed down the time of death to be sometime after 1:00 AM on August, technically 14th, they were, it was the night of the 13th that they were out, so [00:24:00] into the early morning hours of the 14th, and then they never made it to work at like 6:00 AM that morning. So it's kind of that window that they're thinking it happened in. 

Katie: So there was obviously this like sketchy, creepy guy that was around their campsite, but there has been multiple people, like, especially listening to your podcasts that were saying the police were saying that they don't think that there's any danger to the community. Like why would they? Do you have any, like, knowledge about why they would say that?

Jia: I have no knowledge of why they would say that and how they can say that, because they're also saying that,what they were saying is that they don't have a suspect. So like those two things just don't jive. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Unless they know something they're just not letting the public know, you know, unless they know who it is or are they, I don't, I don't know. It makes no sense. And that's why so many residents in Moab are upset because they're like, how dare you tell us we're safe when like this guy murdered, you know, two people just [00:25:00] brutally murdered them and just is, is obviously still free somewhere.

AJ: Yeah. And like, as far as, as far as we know, like, the police have never been able to, of course, determine or identify who this creepy person is. I mean, there's potential suspects or potential leads, but there's never been definitively a name or anything. 

Jia: No, not at all. And I don't know about you guys, if you've read the, like the recent articles that have come out that have said that they have like possible suspects. The articles are so strangely written and they're in like, not such reputable newspapers. And every time I read one of them, I'm like, what is this even saying? Is this even accurate or true? Cause it doesn't seem like it, but that's just, my two cents and it is based on nothing. But you know, my perception of those articles that I read, it seems very bizarre. 

AJ: Yeah, I read the article, and like I went into the article thinking that I was going to come out knowing something more, but it really, I knew nothing more than when I went into the article. And there were like, some of them were [00:26:00] like lengthier articles that it just seemed like it was a lot of... 

Jia: Yeah. They were very strange articles. Yeah. I don't, I don't understand what's happening. 

AJ: Really, I wonder how close they are to potentially identifying who this person is. Like no idea. Right? There's no, no way to know that for sure. 

Jia: Yeah. I have no idea. No idea. And I know they've been working so hard to try and get satellite images because that's, as far as the person ,that the closest person that I have talked to, that I can tell you about is the PI, you know, and obviously law enforcement isn't updating even the families, let alone the public. So we've no idea what law enforcement has, but Jason, the PI, has been trying really hard to get satellite images because if they can just get the images from the 13th of the campsite, they could get a car, you know, even the color of a car, if they're lucky a make and model and that would be huge. So that's like kinda what they're they're banking on right now and I hope they can get it. I had no idea. This was [00:27:00] actually, of course ,I knew satellite images existed, but I did not know the extent of how many companies and how many satellite images are taken of the world all of the time. There's so many companies to reach out to that all have, may have images, you know, cause they all take images at different times, different days and I guess, how much cloud cover there is impacts how good of an image they get. And so, they all take images all of the time, but the chances that the luck of one of them having captured an image in the right time window, and when there wasn't cloud coverage, and there was enough, you know, light or whatever, to actually get an image is, is kind of what they're looking for. So I'm really hoping they can get that.

Stephanie: I find it so frustrating when you're trying to look like, look for information on this case but like every time you go look for it, it's like the Gabby Petito or like something to do with that case and I feel it's kind of sad in a way, because you want to, like, you want to know more and you want to like [00:28:00] get to the bottom of it, but there's just not that much information out there and it's so hard. I can see why it could be hard for the police as well to find information because there wasn't any and because they were so isolated and they were kind of shy, so there's not much out there for them to find or look for.

Jia: Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the, the really, really good thing as far as law enforcement goes is they have so much more access than anybody else right? And even more than the PI, and, I'm sure you maybe read about this, but the phone towers that are in the , like really close vicinity to where Kylen and Crystal were, they did get a tower dump of, you know, every phone that pinged that cell phone tower and so they must have a lot of information that we don't know about. And, you know, in that short window of time, all of the cell phones that pinged, they can get who they belong to and everything. So they must have, you know, much more information than, than we're seeing. [00:29:00] 

Katie: Yeah, that's super interesting. They can like actually get names from those phone numbers.

AJ: Shortly after Kylen and Crystal's bodies were found, Kylen's father, Sean Paul, took initiative to try and find out some information about who was responsible for the crime. This included setting up a clue booth to gather potential clues and suspects, which resulted in over a dozen names of potential persons of interest. Also a set of keys were found at the crime scene and through some intense investigation work of his own, Sean Paul was able to track down a gym where the owner of these keys held a membership. Is this the creepy guy? Who is this person? And where does that portion of the investigation stand now?

Katie: Also, I think it was interesting how, like Kylen's dad set up that clue booth and like he came out of that with like 17 or so suspects and like, do we know if it was actual people or was it like, oh, it was a guy that was staying at campsite B or like, or was it actual people's names? Do you know that kind of [00:30:00] detail?

Jia: I think they were actual people's names because I think he handed over 17 names of people to Jason Jensen when he took on the case because he, I think, joined like a month after the crime had occurred or even a little more. So I think, I think Sean Paul turned over a list of 17 people that then, Jason kind of went and dug in deep and went through to eliminate people and kind of started, started from there, from that point. 

Katie: Well that I find that like that clue booth that he set up as like, I've never heard of someone doing something like that before so that's such an amazing idea, and like it just shows how dedicated he was, but like, yeah, that was such a... and it paid off.

Jia: Oh yeah. It's so heartbreaking and so amazing at the same time. Like I said this in one of the episodes, I wish everyone had a dad like Sean Paul, I mean, he's just like an amazing human being. I can't even, I mean, I, I, you know, I'm a real, like type A personality and, and also like, just [00:31:00] get after things. So I think that's kind of the thing I would do if I was him too, but who knows because the level of grief that you're dealing with, like who can even function to that level at that point in time. It's amazing that he was able to do that immediately after, you know, the crimes occurred. That's just, I can't imagine. I just can't imagine dealing with ... 

AJ: A genius idea really. It's like something I never even thought of. 

Jia: For sure. 

Katie: And the fact that he did it as soon as he did too, definitely helped. Cause you know what I mean? You know, if you waited like even a couple of weeks, you wouldn't have gotten like probably the amount of detail because people would have moved on forgotten or whatever, but yeah, that is crazy.

Jia: I know. Did you guys listen, when he talked about the, the key fobs that were found, like right by well, where the murders happened? Like who knows where those would have been had it been a couple of weeks later, you know, and then not only did he get those key fobs, I think somebody turned them into him or he found them, I'm not sure, but it was during [00:32:00] his clue booth. But then, then, you know, the key fobs are like those memberships that you get, that you can attach to your key chain, right? And so he was like, oh, well, we could definitely identify, it's got a barcode on it. They can identify who it belongs to, whether it's like a grocery store, like in this case they were gym memberships. And, he gave them to the cops and they weren't able to identify them to anyone because one of the gyms had been like foreclosed shut down or whatever. And he instead researched on his own and him and his cousins researched online and ended up finding it had just had a logo on it, but no name. And they ended up like scouring gyms and identified the logo to the gym it belongs to. And then one of the gyms happened to be in Tyler, Texas, where his cousin lives and she actually went to the gym and, you know, that led to one thing to the one thing and then he ended up getting the name of the guy who the keys belonged to, himself. The cops didn't get it and the cops didn't know who that person was and he found it. And then he looked the guy up on Facebook and then looked through all his photos and looked through all his videos and found a video with his license plate and then got his car and make and [00:33:00] model. And then he sent all, and then, he's the one who sent all that information to the cops so he called the cops and they were like, oh yeah, no, we haven't been able to identify who that belongs to and he was like, oh yeah, like that's why I'm calling. I identified them. And it's, it's crazy. And I know the police are obviously dealing with so many cases, you know, and when you're just dealing with one, then that's your whole focus so maybe you can get a little further, but the police have so many resources it just seems, it seems crazy that like the father of a victim has to be the one to not only set up a clue booth, go through all these clues. How like torturous that would have been, you know, and then to even dig through them, identify suspects. It's it's crazy. 

AJ: Yeah. Like, it's crazy. Like if, if Sean Paul was able to do all of that, just himself, imagine what the police could do, given all the resources they have available to them. And so he came up with the name of this person who the keys belonged to so did they get ruled out or are [00:34:00] we... 

Jia: So, this is the frustrating thing because, and, and I find it so hard to believe because, well he called the, called it into the cops, gave them the name and since he's turned it into them, they won't give him any updates as to whether that person is a suspect or not because they're like information only goes out, like it only comes in, sorry, it does not go out. They're not updating any of the families with anything. I know Crystal's mom has called me numerous times after we interviewed her. She calls me regularly and she's so frustrated cause she never gets any updates whatsoever either. And you know, Jason, the PI, said that that's how it works with law enforcement. And, and I find that very, very odd because you would think they would at least update the families. No one else. The public doesn't deserve to know anything and the family's not going to leak anything. The family, nobody wants it solved more than the families like the families want it solved more than the police want it solved. There's no way they're going to do anything to hurt the case. And the reason it really seems [00:35:00] odd to me is because I remember Nicole, Gabby's mom, a couple of times in the press conferences going on and saying how amazing the FBI has been and how they have helped her the whole way through and kept her updated and so on and so forth and it seems in that case, they felt like they were like partners, you know, like they really, really got help and information. And in this case they're not getting any information. And then the PI is also saying, that's just how it works. That's just the norm. And just to me personally, it seems like, how can that be the norm? It doesn't make sense and it doesn't seem to be what happened in Gabby's case, from, you know, my vantage point.

AJ: And, and so we, we have no idea, of course, if this supposed suspect that they have from those most recent articles, if that is tied to this key fob, like, of course we don't know any of those details, right? So there's so much still unknown, but also one thing you guys mentioned in your podcast, was this guy, I think his [00:36:00] name was Adam, he's someone who worked with Crystal, who was, I guess, creepy as well. I don't know if he was described that way, but, and he also, he never returned to get his paychecks or returned to work after Kylen and Crystal were murdered. That's correct right?

Jia: Correct.

AJ: So that was like, when I was listening to that, I was like, well, that's obviously suspicious,a potential, a person of interest, but then also there's a point made in your podcast, I can't remember who said it, but they said, you know, for them to describe this person as a creepy guy, wouldn't obviously it wouldn't have been someone who they knew right? Like they would have seen...

Jia: They would have been like, Adam is creeping us out, you know, at our campsite right?

AJ: Pretty clear, obvious that it was probably not somebody that they do know in any way or at least didn't know their name. 

Jia: Yeah. I mean, that's what I would assume because, you know, from what Shea, who is a friend of Crystal and Kylen's, who worked at McDonald's, who still works at McDonald's, she said that [00:37:00] Adam,, I guess, had a problem with somebody else who was also a lesbian and I guess he had a problem with that for some reason. And so that was odd behavior, and then he also just kind of had a problem with Crystal in general and they don't know if it was for the same reason or for other reasons she didn't know. So I would assume because of those issues that Crystal had to have been aware of him too, right? Like really aware of him. If someone has a problem with you at work, you keep an eye on that person. You'd be like, ah, you know, you saw them somewhere else and they were being weird you would definitely be, you know, on edge and know who they were, I would think. That's what the PI said to us too. He's like, "I doubt it's anyone they know because they would, they would just use his name", they would never say there's a creepy guy, right? 

AJ: Yeah. Your friends or the people you're telling that information to, like as much information as you could. Right? You would say the name if you knew the name. Okay. Yeah.

Jia: And even, and they seem to not be scared. Like they weren't really scared from what it seems. So maybe they [00:38:00] wouldn't give as much information cause they weren't seriously scared. Right? But if you and me both know the same person, I'm going to be like, "Hey, Sarah is a weirdo." I'm not going to be like, oh, there's a, there's a creepy girl, next door. I'm going to just tell you who it is. Cause you also know her, right? They were talking to friends who also work at McDonald's and stuff so they would definitely just mentioned him by name for sure ,right? 

AJ: Yeah. And also, it's mentioned in your podcast too, that Kylen and Crystal just weren't the type to ever like, think that they were better than anyone so they wouldn't describe someone as creepy, unless it was significant. You know, they're not, they weren't easily kind of scared of things like that. So like for them to actually say he was creepy, it had to have been significantly. Right?

Jia: That's what everybody said that they were just not, they were not scared. Yeah. So for sure if, if they thought someone was creepy, that's what everyone has said. That if they thought someone was creepy, they must like really be creepy because they were kind of fearless is what everybody says about them. 

Katie: But what happened to Adam? Has he been [00:39:00] ruled out? Like there could have been a creepy guy and he maybe doesn't have anything to do with it or maybe he does, I'm not sure, but I mean, Adam,, you know, could be in the mix as well. Like where's, he?

Jia: We have no idea and hopefully, you know, the PI knows something or law enforcement knows something, but I asked Shay that and she said that ever since this happened, ever since the girls were killed, he stopped showing up for work. He didn't even pick up his last paycheck and he's just been MIA and it was him and a friend, another guy they both worked at McDonald's,they were both kind of just traveling the country and they had happened to be in Moab at this time and had gotten a job temporarily and then just both of them took off and both of them have never returned which is very weird.

Katie: That's interesting as well, because, they were saying that Kylen and Crystal had multiple shots or multiple gunshot wound, so they're thinking, oh, maybe it was more than one person. Did they ever figure out, like, if it was more than one gun and it could have been like two or three people that had guns and shot them? Like, do we know that? 

Jia: So, in the beginning, [00:40:00] people were wondering that cause they were shot so many times, but it was just one gun. Yeah. So I think it must have just been one person, but you know, we're not sure of that either. 

AJ: Yeah. And so, yeah, like when I was listening to the podcast, I was like, Adam is definitely someone who needs to be followed up with at the very least, but then, there's also mention of the other guy, John Colts, I believe is his name?

Jia: Yes. 

AJ: So he was also kind of in the mix there. Can you just explain a little bit about him and why he was sort of in the mix there? 

Jia: Yeah, I mean, he looks super creepy and, he has, a history of, sexual violence and he was, he did his prison time and then he was deemed too dangerous to be released once his prison time was up. And so he got put in a, I guess, a hospital, that's also, and, you know, excuse my lack of knowledge for what this is, but I guess it's like a prison that's kind of like a [00:41:00] hospital as well. And that's where he got put, that's where he was kept. And then he escaped and I think, if I recall correctly, it was quite awhile ago that I reported on him, but think he got through six locked doors. He tricked one of the workers who worked there and, I think, maybe even he was in a relationship with her and she helped him escape and he got he put on like, I think, it was a doctor's, like scrubs, or whatever, and got like a ID badge and stuff, and literally walked right out. And he was staying in Torrey Utah, which is like, I think two hours, an hour and a half to two hours away from where Kylen and Crystal were. And, but from everything that Jason Jensen has told us, it didn't line up with his dates and his, where he was at the time of the murders, it didn't make sense. But I don't know if he's been fully ruled out or if it's just unlikely that it's him again because we don't get any confirmation on who the suspects really are, but he [00:42:00] had made this comment while he was in that hospital prison place that,that if he was ever to go out, he would go, if he was ever to get out, he would go on a rape spree and so, yeah, it's very strange.

Katie: Also just coming back to the fact that they were shot so many times. When you see that people usually speculate that it was something personal. It was like maybe somebody had a problem with them personally or their lifestyle, maybe. So it was like, you know, they were so enraged that they were maybe a gay couple, that they shot them so many times, or maybe they knew them and were just didn't like them and that was a personal attack. So, I mean, that is definitely like interesting when you think about it like that as well. So I don't know. I just keep coming back to that Adam guy, but like, it could be anyone that like had a problem with them. 

Jia: Yeah. And that's why people have speculated. So like, it was so much whether it was someone that knew them or not because it seems it would fit at like a, or, or a hate crime or someone who's angry, [00:43:00] just like you said, but then it comes back to again, they would have, they would have used that person's name. So, but it could be someone who didn't know them, who did it as a hate crime, for sure. Right? I, I have no idea who like walks around with this level of, of hatred for strangers. It just makes no sense. 

AJ: Sometimes when I was listening to the podcast, I just kind of was wondering like, is it possible that whoever did it is completely separate from this creepy guy? Like that would be too much of a coincidence, right? That it's just not even the same person.

Jia: I mean, but it very well could be. I've had that thought too. I've thought that a few times, you know, it could be. And I know, some of our like, avid listeners, who comment a lot and talk with us on social, one of them has said over and over that she thinks, you know, and of course this is again, just her opinion but, she thinks that the creepy guys are a red herring and she thinks it's someone else entirely, but, and none of us would, could ever ever know. The PI again, says this guy had been creeping them out. They even made [00:44:00] this comment about him, like the chances are low, that it would be somebody else entirely. But then as I go through like, Facebook pages of people who discuss this case and kind of dig up stuff about people who were in the area. It's insane, how many weirdos were in the exact vicinity at this time. It seems very, very odd. There was like, I've seen six or seven people, like, they've done kind of profiles on that. They're like, oh, this person was camping super close by. This person was at the lake. This person was here. And when you look at these people's like rap sheets, it's crazy how many dangerous people were close by. So who knows, who knows? I mean, hopefully law enforcement knows.

AJ: Yeah. And that's why I think it's so important to follow up on every person, because we don't know for sure it is the creepy guy. So, you know, it could be, it could have been someone they knew. So like, you know, Adam, that would be a person you'd want to follow up with right? Because you never know if they're creepy guys, a red herring or not, probably not. 

Jia: Yeah, if it was me [00:45:00] investigating the case, yeah, I would follow up on every single person because I feel like the more you know the better, but, I know. I know Jason is pretty well in the camp that he thinks that it is someone they didn't know. He's like you got to go with the facts and they didn't use his name. and that's like a fact. 

AJ: A few weeks before Kylen and Crystal's murders, a series of firearms were reported stolen from a residence in Colorado. One of the guns that was stolen was described as a Turkish nine millimeter, which is a rather unique type of fiream. Then, at Kylen and Crystal's crime scene, there were a series of silver shell casings that were found and were described to be unusual. Could these unique shell casings belong to the Turkish nine millimeter gun that was reported stolen just weeks before? Could these two incidences be connected? And if they are connected, could this lead us closer to determining who was behind the murders?

And I know I'm going into a little bit more about the gun. Because there was a part in the, in the podcast as well, where somebody had [00:46:00] reported their guns had been stolen and there was a possible thought that it could have been one of the guns that was stolen was the one used in the murder. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jia: Yeah. Yeah and you know, as it turned out, we didn't know this at the time there was a local man. I think he was a, you know, I think he was on the Colorado side, but close by, who had three guns stolen from his shed, I think. And we didn't know this at the time, but after we interviewed Sean Paul, he told us that that was a friend of his, that the guns were stolen from. And so he said it was even, you know, more, you know, jarring because his friend called him and was like, "Oh my God, if your daughter was murdered with a gun that was stolen from my house, like, I don't know how I'll live with myself." It was just another thing that they had to deal with, which is so sad and so horrible, but it turned out it was not those guns that were used and so those were cleared in this case.

AJ: Okay. Yeah, because it was a kind of a unique gun they thought so then they thought, because it was like a Turkish nine [00:47:00] millimeter gun, right that had been used? So that's kind of where the connection came. 

Jia: Yeah and there was a nine millimeter gun that was stolen, but I guess it ended up being a slightly different one. I know nothing about guns. 

AJ: Cindy Sue Hunter, a friend of the two women, was the one who found the bodies and the crime scene on August 18th, about four days after the murders are believed to have taken place. She took it upon herself to travel up the mountains on a frantic search for the couple and was shocked and devastated to come across their bodies shortly into her search.

Jia: Cindy Sue went up the mountain looking for the girls because she was friends with Sean Paul and she had spoken with him and he was very concerned because he said it was not like Kylen or Crystal to miss work. They would never not, like no show, like no call and no show. And, they didn't have, they had a cell phone that they shared, but that cell phone was only connected through wifi. It had no cellular data, so they couldn't use it when they were on the [00:48:00] mountain. They could, they would only use their cell phone when they were at one of their jobs or some other, you know, place where they could get onto wifi. And so there was no way to reach them, but it was just very unlike them to just kind of disappear. And so, well let me take that back, they said it wasn't unlike them to disappear. One time, they just drove to California on a whim, but they would not miss work. They would definitely call in at least if they weren't going to come to work. And so, everybody was very concerned. And then the kind of detail came out from a friend of theirs about the creepy guy that they'd mentioned a creepy guy, which made everybody even more concerned of course. So Cindy Sue went up the mountain looking for them and, you know, as she tells the story, when we talked to her, she said that, you know, her mom passed away and she felt like her mom's spirit was guiding her because she could not find them. She looked for five hours and I should rewind, Sean Paul had the police go look for them earlier and the police didn't find them anywhere. And then Cindy Sue went on her own and you know, she's older and I guess she has some [00:49:00] health issues and she's just by herself again, without the resources of law enforcement, just this one woman, and she said, she filled up a tank of gas and took a bunch of water and like stuff to just be out for as long as she needed to be. And she was driving around and she had photos of Kylen and Crystal, and she showed them to people along the way and would stop and get out and say, "Have you seen these girls?" and nobody had. And she just kept doing that and she did that for five hours and she was about to give up and ,she said, like a voice in her head said, "no, no, just turn right", and as soon as she, she said she made a right and she saw like a glimpse of something kind of silver flicker, like the sunlight hit it and, it was their Kia and she found their Kia. And then she pulled in there and then she found there, the rabbits like enclosure and, and then she saw Kylen's body,and then, she started to look around, she saw Crystal's body. So she's the one who located them. 

Stephanie: I find it really bizarre that she was the one that located them and not the police officers who are trained to like search for bodies and [00:50:00] stuff like that. They obviously didn't search that far or that well, if she found them, you know what I mean?

Jia: It's yeah, it's it, you know, I don't, I don't have words to even explain this. I'd never been to Moab, so I don't know the area, you know, but of course, if she's been there for a long time, she knows the mountains well. She said her mom knew them even better than her, but I would think the police should know them well, because they are the local police, you know? So yeah. I also don't have words for how that all went down. It it's, it's bizarre. It's absolutely bizarre. But Cindy Sue herself says she can't explain it. She feels like it was some, something else guiding her because she, she also can't believe it and can't, you know, explain it. She, unfortunately, I feel really bad for her. She's dealt with, just the aftermath of, of that and the depression and the, the trauma of finding her friends has been really, [00:51:00] really tough on her and now she's trying to sell her house and move out of Moab because she just can't live there anymore. It is just really, really hard on her. She didn't sleep for a, it was a significant period of time, like I think it was more than a week. It's insane. She, she just couldn't sleep and couldn't function. It's really, really sad. There's so many like smaller tragedies within this strategy. It's really, really heartbreaking. 

AJ: And, and if it wasn't for her, who knows how long it would have been until their bodies were discovered, you know, they could still be missing at this point right? Like without her taking that initiative and just going, like, who knows how long.

Jia: Absolutely. For sure. And I think the other frustrating thing is that kind of applies all of the time is, you know, Sean Paul said he called the police to look for them. And because they're adults, like police don't treat it as like they would, if a kid was missing right? Because they're like, well, they're adults and they can do whatever they want. They can go wherever they want. We don't know if they're just decided to go hang out in some other city. So I don't know if they just don't take it that [00:52:00] seriously when it's an adult, because they also didn't, document it as a missing persons. They did an ATL. It's an attempt to locate. So it's almost like a welfare check. Like if you, you know, call and say, I want a welfare check done on my mom, because like I haven't heard from her and I can't go to her house. They'll do that. They'll just go check and make sure the person's okay. So I don't even know how hard they tried to find them. Who knows? Cindy Sue really tried obviously and I don't know what kind of effort was put in by them. 

Katie: Yeah, it could have been the fact that even that they kind of lived out of a van and they were camping a lot. It's like, well, they could be anywhere, so like, they don't really have a home to go check on them at. So that probably didn't, you know, in the police's mind, they're probably like, well, you know, they really could be anywhere. 

Jia: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which is frustrating for, you know, parents of people who are over 18 right?Like it's hard to like get the police to take it seriously. 

AJ: Yeah, and wasn't there also in the podcast [00:53:00] that you talk about, their van was discovered in like a parking lot, right? Or one of their vehicles and some of the stuff was, was taken or some of the items where it was searched at least right?

Jia: Yeah, it was, it was. I think the police, you know, searched it for clues or anything like that. But, it's not, the van was never missing. The van was parked at McDonald's that's where they always parked it. And so the van was where they had left. It was parked at McDonald's. It was this, the Kia that they were driving. That was the kind of missing vehicle. But yeah, the van was also searched along with their, storage unit. I think that they had in Moab. 

Katie: Also multiple people in your podcast that you talked to said that they were just really frustrated with police and how they were handling the case and like we mentioned a few things, like they just didn't take it as seriously. Is there any other examples of why they would be frustrated with how the police are conducting themselves? 

Jia: Well, well, the biggest thing is that they're not giving them information. I mean, that's their number one, you know, kind of beef because they want to know. They want to know what's going on. If they have a suspect, like they want it solved, it's their [00:54:00] children. Right? So that's the number one thing. The other thing I know for Cindy Sue and an other example is that she also felt very unsafe and, you know, she found the bodies and the person who killed them is still out there and so she said that she just felt she also got no updates. So she was, you know, and she, she said herself, she was like, who am I? Like, they don't owe me any updates. I'm just the person who found the bodies, which I don't know, I feel like she deserves some updates. But she said, she understood that she's not going to get updates, but she felt very unsafe in her home, you know? And I think she lives on her own if I'm not mistaken. And so she said at one point, the local law enforcement, not the ones working on the case, offered and asked her if they, she would like a police officer, like stationed outside her house to make her feel safer for a while and she said, yes, she would. And then they went on to say, okay, but you know, our police force is really, really small and we have all these cases to solve and if we put [00:55:00] one of our, you know, only a handful of police officers at your house, that's gonna really take away from solving other cases and then she just felt bad. She said, to just forget about it, you know, I'm not trying to not solve other cases. Like that's all she wants to happen is to solve cases. And so, she said that was very, you know, just, just frustrating. And then the other thing was she said, which was bizarre. She said that just recently, there was a dead body found in a truck nearby. Also in Moab, which I know nothing about. I've never read about, never heard about, except for Cindy Sue saying it to us and nobody ever told them, like, whose body this was, like, who was this person? No one knows who this dead body was. And she said stuff like that happens all the time in Moab and it's like, dead bodies are just found and then just forgotten about which, I don't know, that's so concerning.

AJ: Yeah. Who knew Moab was such a dangerous place? Like who would've ever, who ever, ever thought that's... yeah.

Jia: I looked up the...

Katie: Oh sorry. I was just going to say it's also scary [00:56:00] how there's such a, a big tourist city, and how so many just random people could be coming in and then leaving and then you would never see them again. So I mean, it could really be anyone when you think about it.

Jia: Yeah. I mean, if 3 million people come and go from there, you know, for sure it's a transient place. I looked up the, while working on this case, I looked up the Moab crime statistics, cause I was just curious and they were much higher than the national average, which, especially for, I don't remember all the figures of course, but you guys should definitely look them up. It's very fascinating, but especially for sexual crimes, sexual assaults, which was bizarre.

AJ: Early on Kylen and Crystal's murders were intertwined with the Gabby Petito case due to the close proximity in both time and place. All murders occurred near Moab and took place only weeks apart. Not only that, but a physical altercation between Gabby and Brian took place outside the Moonflower Co-op [00:57:00] where Kylen worked. And there was speculation that the two couples could have played pool together at a local bar shortly before the crimes occurred. Given all these details, there's no way to look at this case without at least discussing these connections. Isn't it odd that these four people who were total strangers and may have interacted on a few occasions all end up dead within weeks of each other. While the police have since concluded that the murders are not connected to each other, the intertwining details gave some attention to Kylen and Crystal's case in the early days of the investigation. However, once this connection became less and less likely, public interest in Kylen and Crystal's case all but stopped and the focus was solely on Gabby Petito. 

But one other thing I did want to touch on, because it was important, at least early on, was the possible connection that it had to the Gabby Petito case and like the potential run-ins they had. Like there was speculation they had may have played pool with Brian and Gabby. Of course it has never been [00:58:00] confirmed or substantiated, so we don't know for sure. But, can you just talk a little bit about, like the sort of intermingling timelines and why they were kind of at first thought to be connected. 

Jia: Yeah, for sure. You know, for one, it sounds like Woody's is like maybe the only, or one of two bars in all of Moab. So anyone who's going to a bar is going to Woody's, you know? So there's that, so the chances of them being at the same bar, you know, are very likely if it's the only place to go. Sean Paul is the one who was asking if Brian and Gabby were the ones that Crystal played pool with on that last night at Woody's because one of the friends who was with Crystal and Kylen said they played pool with a young couple and nobody knows who that young couple is. And so not that Sean Paul is saying it is Brian and Gabby. He's wondering if it is. And he was wondering if anyone had photos or videos or anything like that. Now the other interesting thing is, which he was saying to us last [00:59:00] time we talked to him is, he would like to see the full surveillance footage from Woody's, not just that little clip that's out there, because then we could see who else is around the bar. Right? And he hasn't been able to see that either and that would answer the question of who the couple was that she was playing with. Of course there's no connection between Brian and Crystal and Kylen at all, we now know, but before we knew that, it was very curious because there's just such an overlapping timeline. Kylen had been a cashier at Moonflower for quite some time and the morning that that incident happened between Brian and Gabby, they said that they were at a coffee shop across from Moonflower all day and then that is when Brian hit Gabby in the parking lot. That was in the parking lot of Moonflower and that was around I think, threeish, 3:00 PM. And I believe Kylen's shift ended at 2:00 PM that day. And so she had gotten off work at two at the same location, right?. So that put them in very close proximity. [01:00:00] And, so there's just all these coincidences and people were like, wait a minute. Like, this seems bizarre because, I mean, if you think about it just from an outside, looking in there's four people in the same place in the same parking lot at the same time. If it's Kylen and Crystal and, Brian and Gabby, and all four of them are later deceased. Like I was thinking about that, like walking down New York City, I was like standing on this corner, look at the two people to my right and the one person on my left. If all four of us were dead later that evening, that would be very strange. Like it's a strange occurrence, you know? But fast forward to today, we now know, after we interviewed Diane, who was Crystal's cousin, she spoke to all the women that Crystal and Kylen were with on their last night at Woody's, and their friends said that the girls told the friends that they saw a guy punch a girl outside of Moonflower, and Crystal had went to [01:01:00] Moonflower, and I guess they'd maybe, maybe hung out inside Moonflower for a while. Maybe they grocery shopped, who knows what they did, but they were in the parking lot. They saw a guy punched a girl as they were leaving and they didn't intervene. They didn't say anything, but they did tell their friends as like something weird happened today outside of work and they just kind of told them this as a part of their day. And unless two people had punched a girl outside of Moonflower that day, it had to have been Brian and Gabby. So, we have that, you know, somewhat of a confirmation that their paths did cross in that parking lot too. So it's just all these bizarre, you know, coincidences that seem hard to believe. 

AJ: Yeah. And like, it is just so weird when you look just objectively at it, like we were saying, the fact that all four of them ended up deceased, like very shortly after that, is just bizarre in and of itself, and what I was wondering too, because, he was asking if Gabby and Brian were the couple that they were playing pool with and because some of the friends [01:02:00] said that they had played pool with a young couple, but my question is like, cause Gabby and Brian were, so their faces were everywhere right? During the investigation because of the magnitude of it. So I was just wondering like if it was Gabby and Brian, like wouldn't the friends like no, like recognize their face. Cause you know, it was relatively recent, you know.

Jia: No they wouldn't have, because remember this was August 13th and that video of Gabby and Brian, the body cam footage didn't surface to like the 20 something, August,so nobody knew who Gabby and Brian were. The incident happened that day, but nobody knew who they were. 

AJ: But like even, even after like even after their faces did become plastered everywhere, do you think that they would look back and be like, oh, that was them. Do you know what I mean? 

Jia: Oh, I see what you're saying. With the friends?

AJ: Like, because it had only been like a couple of weeks after and like, you'd think when they saw the body cam footage, they would like, oh yeah, that was the people that we saw, you know?

Jia: Maybe, but you know that one girl who came forward on TikTok, she was at Merry [01:03:00] Piglets, and she was sitting at the table, like close to Brian and Gabby? She said that she, I guess, watched the news and read the articles and didn't, she, she remembered the screaming and the, whatever it was going on between Gabby and Brian and the hostess and stuff, back at the restaurant. Cause you remember just a couple being, you know, rowdy and this guy being like getting in the hostess's face or whatever happened. And she was following the Gabby and Brian case and didn't put two and two together. She's just didn't realize that that was the exact same person until I think her husband said that guy looks so familiar and then they figured it out like weeks after they'd been following the case. Because I don't know if you don't really pay much attention it's like, you know, when you, when you guys report on other stories right in this whole true crime world, and same with us, it's crazy how often a eye witness is incorrect in their recollection of somebody, whether it be identifying someone in a lineup or just [01:04:00] identifying them, describing them. So I don't know if they would. They might. It really depends on the person. Right? Like I know if you asked me who I saw two weeks ago at a restaurant, I would be completely blank. No idea. 

AJ: Yeah. That's true. I guess. Yeah. If it's not like, it's, it's such an insignificant moment in your, when it's happening that you're not taking like a mental image of people. 

Jia: Yeah.You're drinking. You're hanging out with your friends.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. Because it was just like one question I had it's like, you'd think they would recognize and be like, oh, those were the people, but I guess it's,very easy to..

Jia: It depends on the person. Some people have photographic memories and things stick in their minds and other people don't I guess. It just totally depends on the person. I know for myself, I wouldn't for sure. I would not. 

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. 

Katie: But also, like, I don't know when you meet somebody and you're like, I want to play pool. I'm, you know, I'm Katie and then they didn't even exchange names.So, I mean, if they would've done that, obviously it would have been a lot easier, but that's just, I dunno.

Jia: But it sounds like that couple only played pool with Crystal. So the [01:05:00] friends didn't, play with them. The friends were like, oh, Crystal played with some couple. Yeah. 

Katie: Oh, so the friends weren't like, oh, "Hey, like who are you?" 

Jia: Probably not. 

AJ: Very easily they gave Crystal the names, but not to the friends. 

Katie: Just those three talk to each other. 

Jia: Could have been, could have been. Yeah. Now if we got the full surveillance footage from Woody's, we'd know more who they talked to and stuff, and we could see who they were obviously, which is what Sean Paul was saying. He would like to have it. 

AJ: Yeah, I really hope. I mean, based on those latest articles, maybe they're closer with the suspect. Who knows if those were legitimate sources or not, but I really hope they do eventually find out who did this because you know, we're going, we're coming up on what, six, seven months now, and I'm really hoping that there's some development, and that they can find justice for Kylen and Crystal, because yeah, like that would be, it needs to happen, right? Like it feels [01:06:00] like they could be getting close, but when you don't know anything and they're not telling you what's actually happening, you have no idea if they're closer or if they're way off.

Jia: Yeah. I know. I hope so too. It's so, so heartbreaking for their families. I can't even imagine going through this trauma and then dealing with all of this. It's been six, six months, right? Almost or it has been six months. It's crazy. It's so sad. 

AJ: And that's why like your podcast is so good because you're getting the word out and you're interviewing like family members. So like people are becoming more and more familiar with the case, due to that. So I think that's really, really good. And it's helping get the word out there because other than that, I don't know if it would really be out there, right?

Jia: Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. I mean, that's, our goal is to hope that we reach some listener who happened to be travelling in Moab at that time and can look through their own photos and dash camera or anything they have. We never know because we never find out what people actually turn in, but we're hoping that, that we can help in that process.

Did you guys know about the case before you heard it [01:07:00] on our podcast? 

AJ: I had actually, I remember initially when like the Gabby case was happening, there was an article I read saying that early on they connected,or potentially connected them, saying this couple was also murdered who may have who, and she worked at the Moonflower. So I knew there was that connection, but then didn't really know the details of it until you guys started covering it on your show. And then we knew obviously way more, but, I was like sorta familiar with it, but I wouldn't have known them necessarily by name or anything like that. So it's interesting. Yeah. Cause you're yeah. Cause your podcast, I feel like is one of the only ones that is like covering that case right? Because most are focusing on Gabby and Brian. 

Jia: Yeah. Yeah. I guess so. I guess so. I know there was one early on that I heard when we started, there was another one that was covering, well they were covering Gabby and Brian you're right? Yeah. I think it was, they were covering Gabby and Brian. Yes. You are right. 

AJ: And sometimes this one is like, it's mentioned, you [01:08:00] know, in passing as maybe you're talking about Gabby and Brian, but like with you guys, you actually like interviewed family members and made it really like the focus which was good because no one else has done that, that I know of.

Katie: All the other podcasts it is all the same info that I've heard that like, you know, you read an article it's the same info just back and forth. So like yeah. Your podcast is definitely like the most in-depth new info about it. So that's what makes it super interesting. 

Jia: Oh, I'm glad you guys think so. It's a compliment coming from you guys.

AJ: Yeah. We're really hoping, like, hopefully you're going to update as, as new updates come and if they solve the case, you're going to cover that as well. So I'm excited to like, listen. Yeah. I'm excited for that. 

Katie: And off topic. How is it like reaching out to the family members of the victims? Like I can imagine it would be, I don't know, super emotional to talk to them. And like, I'd, I'd feel a little bit like stressed. Just be like, I don't know, like how and like what to say. So like, how is that, talking to the family members? [01:09:00] 

Jia: Yeah. I mean, everything you just said is how I feel exactly. And, yes, super, it did, it did feel very stressful, especially in the beginning. I'll tell you our season finale, a two-part, and that was our conversation with Sean Paul. And after we hung up, myself and my co-host John were both, "wow, that was really emotional." I was like, I was trying so hard not to start bawling and it's hard to like keep talking when you're, you know, your voice is going to start trembling or, you know, and you don't want to do that. And I was telling Aja actually, just before you guys dialed in that it's such a tough thing, cause it's such a fine line you have to walk cause you don't want to make these people relive this trauma, you know, and you don't want to cause more trauma and you don't want to hurt them anymore, but you want to help spread the word and you can only do that by, you know, sharing their story. And luckily they want, they want to share their story. So, you know, you're doing something they [01:10:00] want to do, but even then it's so hard to ask them questions and then know that they have to answer it. I mean, I know if it was my family member, I wouldn't be able to talk about it. So there's that too. Like I, I hold them in such a high regard. Cause it's, it's something that would, I feel would be impossible to talk about without completely falling apart. And for the most part, and people have cried here and there, but they really like held it together and shared the story. And it's, it's really, really impressive as I, I know I wouldn't be able to do that, but, reaching out to them has been really nice. They've all been very thankful and it makes you feel good at least that you're able to do something to help them in this even the smallest way possible, you know? But it's definitely a, it's a weird, fine line to walk because for me, especially like this, we might've talked about this, about my film. I hate documentaries that are sensationalized and that, [01:11:00] that take people's, you know, the worst day of their lives and their tragedies, and then sensationalize them for like a story. It's like, the story is already as horrific as it can get. It's already as heartbreaking as it can get. There's no need to make it any worse or exaggerate anything or include anything that's going to sensationalize the story. So we try really, really hard to really just stick to the facts and not do any of that on our podcast. I think that probably helps, the families feel comfortable, you know, talking to us and, and stuff like that. But it's very, very sad and very, very difficult. I had a few people ask me when I switched careers and went into true crime documentary, like filmmaking, ask me, like, you want to live in this world every day? I used to do like fun stuff, like marketing and fashion. And they say, you want to, like every day is going to be so sad. You know, like your 12 hours a day is going to be so depressing. And oddly, I haven't found it to be that at all. It's the stories are [01:12:00] so depressing, but the ability to help these people, even in like, even if you're helping them, like 1% is really, really nice. Like it's kind of rewarding and you feel like you're at least doing something rather than doing nothing. So it's actually been a really nice thing to do, which sounds like a very weird way to describe what we do, but that's how I felt about it, if that makes any sense?

AJ: Yeah. And the podcast is, is so well done. So I think you guys had done a really good job of getting the word out there and like, you know, getting the story out there and knowing, and I don't know, really raising awareness because it's not even like a case that most people would probably know about. 

Katie: Yeah, also that episode where I forget who it was, but somebody had written a song and they were singing about Crystal and Kylen and like, just even listening to that song was so emotional. So I can't even imagine like having to talk to these people cause I probably wouldn't be able to get through an interview without losing it because like, just listening to that song was like, oh my God, I can feel [01:13:00] their emotions. 

Jia: Yes. I felt the exact same way. And that song was so beautiful that she wrote for Kylen and Crystal. You know, there's a couple of episodes I will have to send them to you guys afterwards. Sean Paul saying the dad, he sang the songs, he made the music, which is also just, there's so many things that are just so, so heartbreaking. But you know, on the flip side of that, it's those types of things I feel like that you have got to in the podcast and in films, you have got to really include cause that's what people, resonate with. And that's what gets them attached to a case. And someone feeling attached to Kylen and Crystal or feeling attached to their case is what's going to help them go tell their friends, "Hey, where were you,? Were you in Moab at the time? Did you look through your photos?" Like people have to feel compelled to do that and I think making that type of a connection, like you just said with people or that kind of emotional impact on people is what's gonna move the needle on them, telling their friends or making, you know, [01:14:00] just taking some action, whatever that may be. And so I think that it's sad, but it also is what ends up helping in the end.

AJ: Yeah. And that's why I really liked that you guys included like that music aspect to it because yeah, that's what music does. Right.? Like when you listen to, when you watch movies and TV shows right? With the music soundtrack, like that can completely change the emotion of a scene. Right? So including that was really key, I think. And that's why I loved listening to that on the, on the podcast too.

Jia: Thanks guys. Yeah. Yeah. It's really well done. I got to say, it's my co-host John is the producer and he's like a mastermind at that. He's so good at it. He does all the music and the mixing it all and everything. And I, as I'm sure you guys know, cause your siblings and you work together, it's so nice to work with people when you compliment each other skills, you know, cause I can do the interviewing and the writing and he can do all the production and the music and he has a radio background. So he's really good at that. And so, it's, it's worked out really, really well for us and, [01:15:00] and as much work as it is, between like us using our skills, like at the right places, you know, and, and meshing them properly. We only spend like a couple of days a week on it and we're able to produce these, you know, which are really well-produced episodes, which, which is really, really nice. It's nice to find people to work together with that works that way. 

AJ: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, so, Katie or Steph, any final thoughts or questions or anything? 

Katie: No. I just want to say thanks again for coming on our show. It's always so nice to talk to you. 

Jia: Oh, I feel the same way. And you guys are my Canadian friends, so I'm so happy. I know Adrian was talking earlier and he said about, and I was like, oh, people talk like I talk. It's so nice. It's so nice to hear. Yeah. 

AJ: That's funny. I actually had people say, like they say, that Katie says about like, it's the most noticeable and shit. Yeah. I've had people say that it's actually funny, but, [01:16:00] and 

Katie: My friends too, like listening, like when I listened to you on the podcast, I could super tell where you're from.

Jia: My husband says that to me still sometimes. And I don't hear it. I don't hear that I'm doing it, but when you're talking, I can hear it. So I don't know. I guess I'm sure I sound that way too.

Katie: I don't hear it myself, but yeah, definitely listening to other people for sure. 

Yeah., no, and always awesome to talk to you guys. And always happy to do it.

AJ: Thank you so much. It was so good to talk to you. 

Stephanie: Yeah. Thank you.

Jia: Yeah, you guys too, for sure. 

AJ: Awesome. Thank you so much.

 Kylen and Crystal's murderer is still at large and very little information is known about how close the police actually are to cracking this case. Hopefully the real murderer can be brought to justice and Kylen, and Crystal's families can find the answers they desperately seek.

If you have any information regarding the murders of Kylen and Crystal, please contact the Moab police department at 1- 435- 259- 8938 [01:17:00] to help finally solve this case. Thank you so much for listening to our premier episode. I mean, once again, thank Jia for coming back on the show to discuss this case with us.

Listen to Jia's podcast called Speaking of Crime for a deep dive into this case with exclusive interviews with family and friends of the victims. The podcast is available on all major platforms and is definitely worth listening to. 

So we're so happy to be back for another season and we'll be back next week with another episode. Until then you can follow us on social media on Instagram at Crime Family podcast, Twitter at crime family pod one and on Facebook at crime family podcast.

If you have any case suggestions or feedback for us, send us an email at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. We'll see you next week. Bye guys. .