S02E15: THE HART FAMILY MURDERS

Coming up on this episode of Crime Family:

There's a photo of Devonte and he's clearly emotional and he's hugging Sergeant Brent Barnum at a protest in Portland, Oregon. The reason that this was so impactful, I guess, was because Devonte was a little 12 year old black child, and he was hugging a white police officer at one of the protests for Mike Brown.

Hannah one night had like escaped from a second story window of the home and ran over to the neighbor's house and was basically begging for help saying that her parents were racist and that they were her and her siblings were being abused. 

This looks really uncomfortable. Like he doesn't look like he wants to be there.

And it looks like he wants, like, like you say, he's reaching out for help. Like he wants somebody to help him, but nobody... they're just cheering him for some weird reason.

 It's like the sad irony. Like he was like, portrayed as like this free spirit kid. And now it's like, his soul is like free out there somewhere. They can't find it. It's like this really sad, like whole circle.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Crime Family. I am your co-host Katie. And I'm here with my brother AJ and sister Steph. And today we are going to get into a deep discussion about the tragic Hart family murders. So it's going to start off in November of 2014. So there was a photo of a little boy- he was 12 named Devonte Hart, and this photo went viral.

Maybe some of you remember this photo or will know what I'm talking about. So this is there's a photo of Devonte, and he's clearly emotional and he's hugging Sergeant Brent Barnum at a protest in Portland, Oregon. And so the reason that this was so impactful, I guess, was because Devonte was a little 12 year old black child than he was hugging a white police officer at one of the protests for Mike Brown. And to refresh everyone's memory about that, um, Mike Brown was a black man that was fatally shot by a white Ferguson, Missouri police officer during an altercation. And then these protests erupted due to the fact that that officer never got indicted after an investigation about what happened. And so that's what's happening here and there's a photo that goes viral of Devonte hugging this, this police officer.

And he had a sign that said "Free Hugs". So when I say Devonte was emotional in this picture, it's because like, I don't think we're ever actually know what his actual emotion was. Um, he's crying during the hug with the officer. So at first you could kind of think, oh, this is like happy tears, kind of like a sign of unity, a peaceful moment.

But as we get deeper into the story, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that they're not tears of joy, but maybe tears of desperation or they're tears being shed out of fear or anger. The story really starts back with, um, a woman named Jennifer Hart and a woman named Sarah Gangler. They were both students at Northern state university in South Dakota in the US.

Sarah graduated in 2002 with a degree in special education. And Jen was also studying education, but she never ended up graduating. They had both grown up in small town South Dakota, um, in different towns so they didn't know each other until they went to university. When Jen and Sarah started dating, they allegedly had lost a bunch of their friends because they, you know, they came out as a lesbian couple and a lot of people didn't accept them apparently.

And so they moved to Alexandria, Minnesota together, and they got jobs together at the same retail store. Not too long after in 2005, Sarah changed her last name to Hart and they ended up getting married in 2009 in Connecticut. So around the same time that Sarah had changed her name to Hart in 2005, Jen kind of cut off all contact with her father for some reason, apparently.

So a little backstory on Jen, her parents got divorced when she was 12 and she decided to live with her mother. And when she was 14, she moved in with her father. But because she started getting into trouble, he sent her back to live with her mom, but they lived close enough together that she could stay with her dad on the weekends.

And so their relationship wasn't completely over but a lot of sources say that Jen kind of had still this resentment towards her father for sending her back to live with her mom. And that maybe she just never got over it. So she kinds just  cuts her dad out of her life at the same time when, uh, Sarah changes her name to Hart, and her father says that, you know, that's, it's not because that she was a lesbian and she was dating a woman. Like he didn't even know about that at the time that all this was happening and Jen kind of just cut him out. So it's kind of unclear, about what's happening here. So, I mean, all of this could be red flags.

Jen is cutting people out of her life. She's moving away and just kind of trying to start a new life. So, you know, maybe it's a red flag or maybe it really is just her trying to get away from negative, a negative past.

 Backing up again from that those viral photos that were taken in 2014, in 2004, Sarah and Jen began fostering a 16 year old girl who called herself Lee.

And so the Harts were like only in their mid twenties at this point when they took Lee in and in an article for the Seattle Times written by Nina Shapiro, it's reported that Lee recalls being really happy at first in the home with Sarah and Jen, she says that they kept really busy. They would go camping and they'd go to lots of events. And they kind of introduce Lee to a lot of things that she never had a chance to do that. And she said the good times lasted for about six months, but then things started to turn for whatever reason. Lee said that she was like a tomboy, but there was one time when the Harts made her get a make-over at the department store that they worked. A former employee recalls Lee just kinda standing there really unhappy while Jen and Sarah, just like standing there with their arms crossed, watching her get a makeover. So it's like a super weird thing you would force somebody to do. And another incident was Jen brought Lee to a football game and they were going to a Green Bay Packers game. And apparently Jen was like a huge fan.

They both brought footballs to get signed by one  of the players, and then when the player picked Lee's football to sign and not Jen's, like, it turned into this big, huge ordeal. And Jen ended up like ignoring Lee for a couple of days because of this. So, I mean, Jen's like this grown woman and she's being super petty to this teenager.

So this is kind of like a glimpse into Jen's attitude, I guess she had to be in control. It had to be her way, or, you know, it wasn't going to fly. So a little bit more about Jen, like it's reported at multiple sources that Jen was very social. She was very funny, but she had a very dominant personality and she was in control of the relationship for sure between her and Sarah and, you know, she was very abrasive and she could get really moody and some sources say that she suffered with depression as well.

Um, and they had, like I said, it becomes very apparent that she has to be in control. And what she says goes. Lee was actually planning to stay with the Harts until she turned 18. And they were all like, really excited about this. Lee recalls that Jen and Sarah kind of became really strict, Lee wasn't allowed to go out or do anything unless she was going to school or she was going to work or unless they were going to some sort of family get together where they would all be a family doing stuff together. So she wasn't allowed to see friends at all. And Lee thinks that she talks about this later in an interview, um, reported by Nina Shapiro, that when she had lived with her mom before she was in foster care, she kind of had a tendency to sneak out in the middle of the night and hang out with kind of the wrong crowd.

So she's thinking maybe, you know, Jen and Sarah are just kinda trying to crack down, get that out of her system, maybe just being good parents. So while Lee is still with them, this is when the Harts are planning to adopt, like not just foster, but fully adopt some other kids from Texas. And Lee was excited because everyone was saying, "oh, you're going to be a big sister".

And she saw photos of the siblings that were going to be adopted and she was happy .A week before the adoption, Jen and Sarah drop her off at her therapist appointment and then they just never come back for her. And Lee says she never saw them or contacted them again. And that was, you know, that was the end of her relationship with them. And a new family came to pick her up from her therapist, all of her stuff was already at this house. So it was obviously like Sarah and Jen had already planned for her not to come back, but just never told her some sources say that like Lee was suicidal and they didn't want that negative energy around like the new kids that were coming in.

And so instead of, you know, trying to work this out, they just kind of abandoned her at her therapist's house. So yeah, they're running away from, you know, this, something that was going to be difficult for them and just leaving her there. So that was really shitty. So Jen and Sarah ended up adopting six kids in total.

So just so you can kind of get a picture of this, Jen and Sarah are this white lesbian couple and they're adopting six African-American children and they actually adopt two sets of siblings. Which I mean, seems extreme for anyone to adopt six kids. It wasn't all at once. It was like three first and then three later, but still that's a lot of kids for such a young couple to adopt.

So according to an article written by Roxanna Asgarian for the Washington Post, the first set of siblings that were adopted by the hearts were Marcus, who was eight. Hannah was four and Abigail was two. And this happened, um, in November of 2006. So they were removed from their biological mother's care after she had pled guilty to medical neglect.

So their mother was allegedly very young. She had three children and she  was living in poverty and she just couldn't provide the proper support. And so she made the decision to give up her parental rights to try and give her kids a better life. The second set of siblings was Devonte, Jeremiah and Sierra.

And they were all siblings and their biological mother was struggling with a cocaine addiction. Jeremiah was apparently born with cocaine in his system and their biological mother tested positive again for cocaine, right after Sierra was born. So the kids were originally taken from their mother's care and they were placed in foster care.

But then they were placed with their aunt in 2005. Their aunt wanted them to stay with her because she wanted them to stay in the family. And apparently their aunt was like a really great person. She had a great house, she moved into a larger house, so she could accommodate all, all these kids coming in.

She had a steady job. Um, she was the sister of their biological father. The state was fighting to relinquish the rights of both their biological mother and father, because they both had issues with drugs. So they lived with their aunt and they were actually really happy and it seemed like they were in a good environment.

But about six months after, um, it was discovered that the kids were left alone with their biological mother one day while their aunt was called into work. And because their mother, you know, didn't have custody, and wasn't supposed to be around them, the CPS agent decided that that was the, that was it. And she took them from their aunt right there and they never ended up going back.

And so another sad piece of this story is that Devonte, Jeremiah and Sierra actually had an older brother named Dante. And he was the only one that was not adopted by the Harts and he was eight years old when they were taken from their aunt. He was separated from Devonte, who was four at the time. Jeremiah was two and Sierra was one, and this was in 2006 and they were all separated and Dante never saw his siblings ever again. So that's super sad. 

Do we know why he was the only one that wasn't taken? 

Yeah. So apparently when they were all taken from their parents the first time, you know, as can be expected, Dante was a little bit older and he acted out really violently.

And so he was like a troubled kid. He was really hard to control and he had violent outbursts and he was actually, you know, when they were adopted and he wasn't, he was put into like a psychiatric hospital. He was given meds all the time. Like he recalls back that they would give him like shots, like needles that would like completely make them pass out for hours or days at a time. And so it was like, he was just troubled. And I guess the Hart family did not want to deal with him. So they left him behind, which is super sad.  

Like a Psycho movie. 

Well, I know.

 That's ridiculous!

 And the messed up thing is, is like, as we get into this, you'll see like, especially like Jennifer Hart, she's always like, "oh, like I saved these kids in the, you know, without me, who would they have had?" But like, she didn't want to put in the extra effort for this one extra kid that really needed someone's help and love. That was just too much, you know, but that was kind of like never, ever mentioned. So that's like super hypocritical. 

. It's like she wanted the... it's like she wanted the, the image of, oh, these are all great kids. But then if there was one that maybe needed that little extra, extra effort, she was like, well, I'm not really in it for that. I'm not really in it to put in the parental effort. I just wanna have this image.. 

Yeah, I'm in it for the image. Exactly. That I'm looking after these three black kids that didn't have a chance without me, but the one that actually is super troubled, I'm not going to bother with! One thing among multiple things that frustrates me about this case like up to this point, is that the fact that, you know, child protective services was seemingly doing the right thing. Like we always hear about how, you know, CPS doesn't do enough and the kids fall through the cracks. They don't take action. And I feel like, you know, people would say that, well, if CPS came, when they saw that they were in the care of their biological mother, who's a drug addict and she wasn't supposed to be there and they didn't do anything. Well, then, you know, that would be a slip up. But then the fact that they, you know, CPS stood up and did take the kids away, it was like, oh, they did a good thing. But it was like, it was kind of harsh. Like they never were able to go back to their aunt again. So like, what is your guys's opinion on that situation?

Yeah. I think it's... that field. It's so hard. ... like to be a child protective services worker would be so challenging because in some cases it's like they crack down it's zero tolerance, and then you can advocate and be like, well, no, that they, they were in a better situation and it was just one slip up.

And then there's other times where it's like, they, they give them multiple chances. And then if something bad happens, they're like, well, you shouldn't have given them multiple chances. So it's like, it's kind of like, you're damned if you do damned, if you don't and of course you never know, like these workers never know obviously what the result is going to be going into it. So if they do take action and then something bad happens, you can say, well, you shouldn't have taken action, but then if they don't and then something bad happens, it's like, well, you should have. So it's like, they can't win either way. They had to just make the, I feel like they have to make a decision that they feel is right in the moment. You can't really say, like in hindsight, that was a terrible decision, knowing how it ends up, because you just have to kind of go with what they felt  was the right thing in the moment. That's my opinion, anyway. 

Yeah. When I was reading about that too, like, I feel like there's protocols that they have to follow and if they don't follow them, then like, it's not really doing their job, but I feel like, like AJ said you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, they made a good decision and people got mad, but if they didn't do something, other people would get mad. So it's like, how do you win in that situation? But I don't think they did anything wrong. I think that was their job was to take them out of that situation. Cause they weren't supposed to see their mother. So to me, I don't see them doing anything wrong, but I don't know. It's, I'm not a CPS worker, so, and I would never want to be, cause I know they have a hard, hard job to do and I just feel like they would, like, AJ just said they were just doing what was right in that moment, whether it was right or wrong.

Yeah. I feel like in most cases like this anyway, like the CPS worker is doing what they feel is best. And so they probably thought this was the best for the kids was to get them, you know, as far away as they could from their biological parents as possible, I guess. And that's what they tried to do. 

And I just want to say one thing, and I think something else too, it's that there's not like a one size fits all sort of job. Like you can't just take, you know, a formula or like, you know, your training and your theory of whatever you think, and then apply it to every situation. Like every situation is so totally different. And that's why I feel like the workers just have to kind of go with their judgment  at the time, because you could have 8 million families and 8 million different scenarios and situations that would work with each family. So it's really, really hard.. 

And I mean, we don't know exactly how many chances this family had before that. I mean like their biological mother obviously tested positive cocaine and so did the child. And then again, so it was like she had multiple chances and then maybe this was the, her aunt's.. The aunt's first slip up, but it was like, the mother was involved again. So it's like, well, you already had a billion chances. So you're done this time and it's kind of unfair for the kids and the aunt, but that's just how it is, I guess. 

And obviously, and like, I feel like the aunt, like I know a little bit about the story, so, but I feel like the aunt was not a bad person. So she was making the decision that she felt was right. Like if she really didn't think that the mother was, it was safe for the mother to be around her children, that I believe that she wouldn't have made that decision to have her, the mother be there. So it's like, you have to also put some trust in her that she wouldn't have put the children in harm's way because she loved the children, right? So I feel like, I don't know, this is just so hard and I wouldn't want to be a CPS worker. At all. 

Yeah. From everything I know, I agree that I feel like the aunt really was a good person and would not have done that if she didn't feel that it was safe for the kids, but that's not how it ended up. Um, also another thing I want to point out is that in, um, the documentary by, um, Discovery, or Investigation Discovery called "Broken Harts", there's an editor from Mel magazine Zaron Burnett.

And he talks a lot in this documentary. Kind of about what's going on. And he makes a good point when he's saying like, oh, there's this loving aunt who allows one visit from the biological mother. Kids are taken away. She's never seen the kids again. But meanwhile, they're given to these women who you'll find out later have numerous allegations of abuse.

And what you, and one even gets charged with abuse and the kids are saying that they're being abused and the kids remain with them. So it was like, well, why do they get so many chances when the biological family is kind of cut out completely, you know? And he of course brings race into it because they're a black family and then these white women get these multiple chances. So, I mean, it is kind of like a not good situation happening. 

Yeah. I think ...I watched the documentary as well. And I think everything that he said I agreed with and it's just an interesting watch. So definitely recommend everyone check out the documentary because it does kind of have some good points.

Okay. Okay. So in June of 2008, the Hart family is complete, um, because they've adopted all six kids and you know, now they're a family of eight. So from the outside looking in, it seems like this family is like a happy, perfect, progressive family that consists of two white lesbian moms and their six adopted black children and they're like fighting for racial equality and they're promoting love and unity. And they were, they called themselves. So they were known as the "Hart Tribe" because they did everything as a family. They were like this big family unit that hung out and enjoyed life together. And there, there are photos and there's videos of them all over social media. They're holding hands. They're like dancing, they're holding free hug signs. And they're holding signs about love and they're attending festivals together and they wear matching shirts and they're dancing in circles. So, I mean, it's just like this, this whole image of this seemingly being like picturesque childhood that they're living.

And from the  outside looking in, it seems like, wow, these kids are like really lucky to live in that kind of environment, this "free spirit", like "We love everyone" kind of thing going on. And there's this video from the Beloved Festival in 2013. And there's a clip of this in the documentary that I just mentioned, the "Broken Harts", um, documentary on Discovery, and it shows little Devonte in a little zebra onesy, and he goes up to one of the performers who are sitting on stage with a guitar and this guy's kind of singing or he's like chanting almost.

And Devonte goes up and gives him this big hug. And the crowd is like cheering. It's like such a, like a nice moment. Um, so in this documentary it only shows like a few seconds of it, but there are places where you can watch the full clip of it. And, but, but in this documentary they're saying that Devonte, you know, he's actually like in real life, he was actually kind of shy and it seems suspect that he would want to go up to strangers and just hug them all the time. Like they seem like he kind of felt like he was uncomfortable in that situation, but he was kind of expected or forced to go and hug this guy. Anyway, he does it. The crowd is cheering and yeah. So just kind of like Jen wanting to create this vibe for social media. Okay. But so in this other clip that, that goes on longer, this hug lasts for like over a minute and Devonte is just there hugging this guy, who's singing and chanting and he's like, Devonte's crying. And the crowd is like starting to cry. And then the singer is starting to cry, like he's sniffling and like tearing up and he's still chanting and then they stop and they just like stare at each other for like another 30 seconds.

And then like, this guy is smiling at him and he's still chanting. And then like Devonte has his free hug sign around his neck and then Devonte just kind of runs off stage and everybody's cheering. And it's like this really like emotional moment when you know what happens. It's almost like this desperate call. Devonte holding on for dear life, like" help me!" kind of situation. And it seems super eerie looking back when you know what what's going to happen. And it's actually really sad. 

Yeah. That is really sad. 

That's funny... not funny that you brought it up, but I was watching that clip. I was, was saying like, to myself, like this looks really uncomfortable. Like he doesn't look like he wants to be there and it looks like he want, like, like you say, you like, he's like reaching out for help. Like he wants somebody to help him, but nobody... like they're just cheering him for some weird reason. I don't know. I find it. I find it really sad when I watched it. I was like this poor kid...

Yeah It's sad cause you know what's happening. But I feel like in the moment it's almost like this, oh, you know, this kid that just loves hugs and is like spreading love and his family is like supporting him and the crowd's supporting him. And it's like this poor kid doesn't really have anybody to turn to when he's like hugging this guy.

Like "For the love of God,. Like help me" almost look on his face. Yeah. 

I tried really hard to like... think about that moment without knowing what happens and like, without knowing all that other stuff, and it's like, it does make sense that that would be like a very positive kind of moment. And it's only looking back when you kind of are like, that's super sad, but I guess at the time, yeah, it seemed like it could be something that was super positive.

Yeah. And throughout the documentary and like other sources, you see pictures and like videos of Devonte with those free hug signs. Like he has multiple ones and he carries them with him. They say for like years there's footage of him with these signs. And it's like, was it forced the whole time? Like, was this like just Jen making him do these kind of things?

Or was that kind of really his personality, like wanting, maybe it was both right? Like maybe he really was trying to spread that kind of message. But it felt very forced um, some people, some people say, and I guess the sad thing is we'll never know. 

Well, clearly... well we clearly know that she wasn't a super loving person.

She left one of her children just at the therapist office and never saw her again. So like then to say that, like, she's this positive person who wants to spread love. It's like, well, she's not a very loving person from what we know. So it makes it seem like, it's forced. 

Yeah, it definitely it's like this facade she's putting on for social media, because we, like, we all know like your, like your life on social media is not, um, is not real for the most part.

Yeah. Like I was saying, like, Jen is like very in control of the household and, you know, she decided that she was gonna stay home and raise the kids while Sarah kept her job as an assistant manager at the department store. And she controlled all the social media accounts too. And so like, like I just said, we all know that, like what you see on social media, people's lives, it really isn't real, just like a snapshot of few perfect moments and videos that are like all strung together to create this, this fake ideal life. You know, and she was making her life look better than it actually was. As you may have guessed from what we've already said, like real life for the kids was not as glamorous at all, as it seemed online.

And from people looking in what they were seeing, you know, it was not real. So the family was living in Minnesota in 2008 and in 2008 um, one of the daughters, Hannah would have been around six years old and she was questioned by a teacher about bruises that she had on her arm that Hannah told her teacher that Jen had hit her with a belt and the police were actually contacted but there was never any charges that were laid for this particular incident. Jen and Sarah explained to the police that she must have fallen down the stairs. And for whatever reason, they brought up the fact that Hannah, you know, it was going through like food issues and she would steal food from school and she was eating out of the trash, like that kind of thing.

And so I'm not sure why that would be relevant to her bruises, but they felt the need to bring it up to the police officer. So nothing ever came from this allegation. In 2010, another allegation of abuse arose from the school. Um, when this time Abigail who would have been around seven at the time, she told her teacher that her stomach and her back hurt. And she actually said that her mom had given her "Owies". Um, poor little girl. And then according to Investigation Discovery, Jen and Sarah had found a penny in Abigail's pockets and they kind of just flew off the handle for whatever reason, because they figured that she had stolen this penny from somewhere and to punish her, they held her head under cold water and they punched her and that's where she got all the bruises from.

And then when they interviewed the other children, um, when the police interviewed the other children, they told them that they were being spanked often by Jennifer and Sarah, and that they were grounded often and that they were even being deprived of food sometimes as punishment. And because of this incident, Sarah eventually admitted that it was her, even though Abigail told, um, the school that it was Jennifer, but Sarah took the blame and she actually pled guilty  to assault. And was, you know, given probation and community service hours, but the kids still remained in their possession, all of them. 

So that's ok..? But the aunt, you know, let the mother see, see her children for one afternoon and that's the zero tolerance, but in this case, it's okay. Like it's ridiculous.

 Yeah. That's what the, that's the point that the guy that documentary was making, it's like, well, all these allegations are coming out yet. The kids are still in their possession and yeah, so it's, it's kind of crazy. And people were saying that people that knew Jen and Sarah were saying that it was very surprising that Sarah was the one that pled guilty and was charged and everyone knew or suspected anyway, that, you know, Sarah was taking the fall for Jen because Jen was like the dominant, aggressive, I guess, violent person in the relationship.

And Sarah was covering for her for whatever. Sarah was like very much more passive and kind of more shy. So maybe Jen was able to bully her as well. Yeah. So back in 2008, when that first abuse allegation came up, Sarah and Jen actually took their kids out of school for the rest of the year. So, you know, this prevented the teachers from being able to find anything else that they could report to the police.

The kids were put back in school after that, but then after the police were involved again in 2010, and then additionally Hannah had told the teacher that she hadn't eaten all day, the Hart's pulled their kids out of school for good. And that's when they decided to homeschool them. So it's like they, like they said in that documentary as well, like they learned that if they could isolate their kids from, you know, teachers and anyone that would pry around into their personal lives and they could kind of get away with more.

It goes back to Jen being in control of the situation, if she can control where  kids are at and who's talking to her kids. And like, she can do no wrong type thing. So she's controlling like what every step of their lives. So nobody knows what they're doing.

 Yeah, exactly. So if they're abusing the kids, but now the kids have no one to talk to because they're at home all day with their abuser, they can't tell anybody and nobody can see what's happening either.

So it's like just like a nightmare for these kids I can only imagine. After Sarah's probation was done, the family moved again and this time they moved to Oregon. And during all of this, this is when that when the Devonte photo of him hugging the officer went viral, um, that I mentioned earlier, and it was because of this photo, that TV stations were reaching out and asking for interviews with Devonte but allegedly Jen was refusing these because she wanted to protect his privacy. She didn't want, you know, people prying into their lives for fear of, you know, looking back fear of what they would actually discover. So and according to Molly Young, who was reporting for an Oregon news outlet called the Oregonian, Jen claims that they were getting death threats towards the family as a result of that viral video. Don't exactly know why, but there was actually no evidence that ever came forward that they were getting any kind of death threats. So this was just like another thing she was making up to kind of like protect her family, but really protecting herself from the outside seeing what was going on. 

I dunno if it's devil's advocate, which is to like, look at the other side of that, it's like, well, You know, there's a lot of crazy people out there who do put, to do say death threats to people all over the internet for random things, you know, like she's posting a picture about spreading love and then there's those trolls who just, you know, anything positive, they'll just like send you death threats because they don't agree with it or they're racist or whatever. So, I mean, that is possible. That could happen. But going back to the, like, she refused to have him do TV interviews and stuff. It's like, it's almost like she was afraid of what he would say in the interview. You know, like if he said something and that could tip people off or something like, so it's like, well, if she is in control, she's posting the photo, she's the one who's like curating everything that's being seen. And she can make sure that none of that happens. Whereas like, if it's just a TV interview where he has free reign to talk, who knows what he will say. 

Well, yeah. And I think it's really easy to stage a photograph and like a clip in a video of, you know, what Devonte's like, but he was like, if he's sitting there asking questions, You know, his actual demeanor and true self is going to come out and there's nothing that she can do to control that. So if that's not really how his personality is and you know, he said something like you said, then yeah, there's no way for her to take that back. 

Seems a little bit weird that it's the, like the documentary, it talks a little bit how it seemed like she kind of loved the attention that they were getting. Like she's probably really happy when it went viral or I think anyway, I mean, obviously I don't know for sure, but speculating. I think she loved that. So then it's like, why would she, why would she refuse interviews? Like that would be more exposure, but looking at it like, yeah, she wanted to control everything. It's like she wanted to be viral, but on her terms, that's what it sounds like. 

Yeah, exactly. In that same report that I just mentioned about when Jen said that she was getting death threats, there was evidence that she was getting like emails that were, you know, maybe not nice, like unpleasant mean emails from people, but there was nothing as severe as death threats.

So maybe she was  getting them from somewhere else, not through these emails, but there was no evidence that that was coming in at all. So maybe it's partly true, but whatever. I mean, it, it is what it is. 

If the podcast blows up, we'll probably get death threats from trolls online too. So I mean it happens to everyone, like literally.

And I mean, like when you, when you look at some of the things that, um, like news reports and things that Jen posted, it's like, Annoying. When you see people like that didn't actually happen. Like she would post stories where she, "oh, I went to the store with my kids and the cashier was like, oh, you guys are buying a lot of leeks. Like I've never seen a family buy this many vegetables". And then the kids are like, "oh yeah, we're all vegetarians. We love, um, we love our vegetables". And then the cashier is like", oh, but your mom didn't buy like any snacks or any treats". And then my kids talk to each other and they're like," oh, I guess she didn't see the kale."

And it's like, what? Like what the hell? That is such an annoying thing. Like I, yeah. I'm sure your kids are talking about how they're getting kale as a treat. And if they are, that's a little bit sad. I feel. And so just those kind of like little stories that are like, fuck off when you see them online. And you're like, there's no way that's true. And if it is like, you're a shitty person, 

Was that the same? Was that the same post? Like, I think it was a documentary that shared that super long post that she... like, some encounter that she had with a woman at the supermarket or something. And I was like, I don't know. It was just so A) cringe and B) like such an obvious, like, look at me, look at me. I'm such a wonderful parent! I'm such a wonderful, loving, like, I don't know. Like if I saw that online, I would like, this person wants attention. 

The, yeah. The little like stories she goes on about him. The cashier is asking Devonte like, "oh, like what are you going to be when you grow up?" And he was saying like," oh, I'm going to be like myself. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to be somebody that people want me to be" and the cashier, like whatever she was saying, whatever. And then I was like, "oh yeah, like, I didn't want to step in. Cause he was holding his own. He thought I knew he could handle him. And he was like..." I don't even know it was super stupid.

I don't even. Yeah. I remember you talking about yeah. 

Two page story. Did that really happen in like a 15 minute grocery run? 

Well, it was like a Facebook post, right? It was like, they shared like a Facebook post that she had put with this super long interaction. It was like, yeah. It's like, kind of like those people who it's like, they need constant admiration or constant, like congratulations for things.

It's like it just to me, like, I. I am gonna get,, getting a little bit onto a rant here, but I hate people like that. It's like they do something nice. And then it's like, they're like begging for like the, um, adoration from it, or like, "oh, you're such a good person. Or "You... you are so kind or look at you". Like, I dunno, it's just, I hate people like that. 

Yeah. And it's like, she's using her kids, like what her kids are doing to be like, that's how good of a parent I am. It's like, oh, I did that. It's because of me. Right? And it was very like, oh, I saved these kids and look what I did for them. And like,  that's brought up in that documentary too, where it's like, oh, it was like this, it was like white savior kind of thing.

It was these white women saving these black kids. And it was like, if I didn't do it, who was going to do it? Like, that was like, almost like a little repose. So it was like, really just like a shitty attitude, even though she was portraying it as like we're wonderful. 

Yeah. And it's, and it's almost, it's, it's kind of like, I don't know. It makes me feel like she was just needed the validation. She was probably very sad inside and just needed the validation. 

Yeah. It definitely felt like that. And like another weird thing how they were saying like, oh yeah, we're all vegetarians. But then in a report it came out like, then they searched their fridge later.

It was like, they, you know, they had like, they had meat and like chicken in the fridge and they would have like pizza pops in the cupboard and like the freezer and stuff. So it wasn't like, they were like this health conscious, like no junk food, you know, kale is a treat kind of fucking bullshit. It was like, they were a normal family.

And for whatever reason, they were just trying to portray themselves as this clean. Like, I don't know, like it just bothers me so much. And like, I don't, you know what I mean? Like I'm vegan, but I'm not being  like, oh, look at my fridge. Like F you like, there's bagel bites for my kid. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's so dumb. 

It's like, when you see all those fucking, I don't know, these, those fucking Youtuber, vlog  moms, it's like, Oh, I'm such a good.. I'm going on a juice cleanse. And my, and my kids are so clean and they're..." fuck off!

Well,juice cleanses aren't very good for kids to do.. 

Oh yeah. No, definitely not! 

It wasn't like a specific example. I was just kind of like saying, like in general..

No I'm just saying like, if you do, if your kid's doing a juice cleanse with you, then the something wrong with you, because that's very unhealthy for a child to do.

Yeah. And also like, and like mom groups, like shaming everybody in the whole group because their kids are going trick or treating like for Halloween, it's like, okay, like keep whatever, like keep your opinions to yourself. It's candy and they're kids. Anyway, that's a rant, but let's move on. But yeah, this is like the totally just like, the kind of vibe that this, um, this Jen is giving me and it's annoying.

Yeah. So throughout like all this time, like while they're even in Oregon, like Minnesota child welfare is, you know, said that they received reports of... Of abuse and neglect when they were in Minnesota. So it's like they're following up to the child welfare services in Oregon from a different state, you know, telling them that they need to look at this family cause there's something going on.

And you know, they had received six troubling reports of abuse and neglect, and two of them were actually deemed to be founded. So it's not like CPS has forgotten about them once they moved, like they are trying to follow up, but they can't really, but they can't really keep up with this family cause they're moving and just things are just going on.

And even in that documentary, the, like the sheriff or the police chief at the time was saying how they don't have like this national database to keep track of child , like, CPS concerns. When, uh, when a kid gets moved to family to family or when that family adopts new kids, like there's nothing that is like a whole database for all of that, which is like a, definitely like a shortcoming for the system that you feel like would be in place by now. 

There's nothing that links the states together? Like, so you can have all of these reports against you, but all you have to do is move states and then all it's clean slate? 

Yeah. It's not like a federal system. It's like by state. So, I mean, yeah, once you move it's like that state doesn't really have any obligation to follow you across states. Now it's that state's problem. And they don't have a record. So it was kind of like starting clean. That's what I'm getting from this anyway. I don't know, like the whole legal or what actually happens, but that's what it seems like.

And it seems like in this case, like they were actually going out of their way to inform another state of the history of this family. So it was like they were doing more than they actually were legally needed to do it seems? Either way, it wasn't enough. 

So not too long after all these allegations were coming out, um, this was in mid 2017, the family moved again to Woodland, Washington. And so this is when kind of like the extreme allegations of abuse started happening while they were in Washington. 

Does anybody else kind of want to go into, like what happened when they were like begging for food at their neighbor's house and stuff?

I guess I can say it. So after they relocate to Woodland Washington, um, there were a few other instances, um, or incidents that took place that are obviously really, really sad. So Hannah one night had escaped from a second story window of the home and ran over to the neighbor's house and was basically begging for help saying that her parents were racist and that they were, uh, her and her siblings were being abused. And obviously this was a huge, hugely alarming to, to the neighbors. There were also instances where Devonte would go to the neighbors house and ask for food or he would go to the, or the neighbor would put out food by the fence and then Devonte would go and get it cause he was saying that they weren't being fed at home. Um, I'm not sure for sure if that was the same neighbor as the one Hannah went to...

She went to the neighbor that one night and then Devonte went over the next night and like knocked on the door and asked for like a piece, a slice of bread. And then it was like, the neighbor was saying like, it started as like one item, but then it ended up being like, like one time a day then ended up being like three times a day to the point where she was just putting it through the fence for Devonte or whoever to come and like get the food and like eat it outside.

Yeah. So like the neighbors are obviously very aware that there's something happening. Like a child doesn't escape from the house and say that her parents are racist and they're being abused and then have all of this stuff with the food. So obviously they're very aware. But I don't understand that they must have alerted someone right? 'cause I'm like, you don't, that doesn't happen. And then you stay silent and like, why are they feeding them.. Why are they just going and feeding them this food and not doing something else? I mean, yeah, feeding the food is good, but get them out of there!

 They did, um, report it to the police or CPS. And CPS actually went over to the house and interviewed the kids and the parents separately. So they interviewed the kids in one room and the parents in the other room. But because they were in the same house, the kids denied everything that, all that happening. They didn't say anything. And then of course, like Sarah and Jen also denied that nothing was happened that their kids had food issues and that they were trying to come up with like a plan. The kids weren't eating properly. So they would try to like come up with this plan of scheduling of like, how to get their kids to eat proper cause they weren't like they had what she called "food issues". 

Yeah. And she was saying they would like get food out of the garbage and stuff. Um, that's where that came up again. And she was also apparently like multiple times they would bring up like, oh they're they were drug babies. Like they were born as drug addicts. So they have issues now. And so does, I'll also want to bring up like the first time that Hannah went over to the neighbor's house, like scared saying like, don't tell my moms that I'm here. And then the moms came knocking on the door. Um, you know, she was like terrified, but then eventually they obviously they took Hannah back home. And then the next day, like all six kids came over with like a note that there they had been made to written be like, "oh, I'm sorry that I came over and scared you.

I was just, you know, I was immature and my cat died or something, so it was just like in a bad place and stuff like that." Like, it was just very sorry, like, um, like a note. And it said like, all the kids were lined up as if it was like a robotic thing. And then they all like, single-file left again. And it was like super weird behavior like that, that people were noticing, I was like, this is not, not normal. 

So they separated the kids in one part of the house and Jen and Sarah in the other part of the house. But because they were in the same house, the kids, like, they were still scared for their lives that the parents would find out that what they said.

So they just denied everything and it would have been better if they took them out of the house, away from their parents. So they wouldn't hear what they were saying. That way, they might've got more information, but yeah. 

 Also, like, after that note was given to the neighbors, the neighbors were like, well, can we talk to Hannah or the kids, you know, on their own, I just want to talk to her. And then Jen or both, the parents were like," no, we do everything as a family". And then they just kind of like left and be like, oh my God. So that's like just like the vibe that you get from these like parents. Um, and also I think it's important to bring up like, oh, they were saying like, the kids have issues with like stealing food and like eating out of the garbage and stuff. But like, I think it's important to note that when they would go to like doctor's appointments, like every single kid was below where they should be on their growth charts. And I guess they were saying, um, when Hannah ran over there, she was 14. But one report said that they thought she was only like seven or something like that. Like that's how small and like skinny she was. And so another point that was brought up in that documentary, it's like, well, they're, they're not all biological siblings, so why would they all have this same condition if they're not even like biologically the same? So something's obviously going on, it's not biological. It's the way they're being raised that is an issue. 

The doctor said, like, he didn't seem like they seemed healthy otherwise. So he didn't really make it apparent to like inform anybody or whatever. He just kind of brushed it off, like, oh yeah. Either they look to be okay, like do not, they don't look unhealthy, but they're just not thriving the way they should be.

Yeah. And also, I feel like to the, the case where like the police go and they interview the family or whatever, it's like, that's a case where it's like, if they had a detailed history, I mean, maybe they did, did they have a detailed history at that point? If they could see the record, it's like, oh, these, these have been reports before, like, to see the pattern. But if they're going into the situation, thinking like, this is the first kind of instance, and they're responding to that then like, okay. But like, if they have that history, then they would maybe have a little bit more context and they would know, okay, there's obviously something going on here. 

They probably didn't have all the history because like what we said earlier, like they went from state to state. So like maybe all their details weren't in the reports because they don't link to each state when they move. But yeah, so maybe they didn't have all the, all the other stuff from before in the report. So they just didn't know what they were we're walking into. 

Yeah. And at the beginning of that documentary is when you hear, it's not the neighbor that calls the police. It's the, the, one of the neighbors, her father is like, I think those kids are being abused and he is like my, um, son and daughter or my son and my son-in-law and daughter, you know, don't really want to get involved. They want to say out of it, but he's like, I feel like I can't sit on this any longer. And that's when he finally calls the police. And this is like days before they disappear and all this goes down. So it's like people were trying and like they were seeing stuff was happening, but it's just kind of like, nothing happened fast enough to kind of, you know, save this family. 

Yeah. So do you want me to go into, like, what happens when they peace out? 

Things take a little bit of a even darker and more sad turn. So, um, at the time Sarah was a cashier at a department store and one day in March of 2018, she sends a cryptic text to one of her coworkers saying that she's not feeling well and that she thinks that she might have to go to the hospital.

Um, and then after that, she doesn't respond to any texts after that. She doesn't send any follow-up texts after that. So, and everyone was kind of confused because they said that, you know, she worked the day before and she seemed perfectly fine. So they were obviously worried about her. Um, and then it was like the next day, when they still hadn't heard from her and she didn't show up to work again and she wasn't responding to texts, that one of her coworkers actually ended up calling 911 to request a welfare check. And she basically just told the 911 operator that "I'm concerned for this person. She said that she felt sick. She had to go to the hospital and she hasn't responded". So then the police do go. Um, but they also asked when this coworker was on the phone, they asked this coworker, if she knew anything about Sarah and Jen not feeding their children. And she explains in the documentary that, that she was  totally kind of blown away by that she had no idea what they were referring to. Um, so the police do go to the house and they do a check, uh, a welfare check.

Um, they see that there is a, a notice from, uh, CPS that's like lodged in the doorway as if somebody had gone to do like a, like a check from CPS or something before and just left that there. But it was still in the doorway and the police eventually do make their way into the home. And they noticed that like, nothing seems awry. Everything seems pretty neat. There's no sign of anything that's wrong. They said that there's, you know, fruit out on the counter. There's like a full fridge full of food. Um, and there's no like, you know, locks or chains or anything on the fridge. Like, it just seems that it has like easy access for everyone.

So like, you wouldn't know anything was happening just by the way that the house looked. Um, but they said that it looked like they had just left and possibly they were on the run and they thought maybe because there was that CPS, you know, notice in the doorway that maybe they were fleeing to avoid some type of CPS investigation that was happening.

I think another thing to bring up is like when the CPS first came and knocked on the door, like Jen's car was in the driveway and she, Jen apparently was home, but she just didn't answer the door for the CPS worker. So it's like, she knew that they were there, but she just didn't answer the door. And they were obviously the CPS workers and they weren't just  gonna bust in. And so they had no choice, but to like leave a business card or whatever and leave. But when the police showed up, I think another important thing is like, the house was clean and like, it looked fine. There was lots of food, but they said they like, there was only like three bedrooms in the house and they were like, they couldn't, it didn't look like there was six kids that lived there.

Like they didn't, it wasn't like, there was a ton of like personal possessions around or like toys anywhere. And they said  the two mothers slept in like a double bed in one room. And then in another room there was like two love seats. And like some like mats on the floor. And then there was like another room that had like a single bed or something.

So it was like, where were all these kids sleeping? So they just were... They just assume that I guess, a lot of them just kind of slept on the floor every night. They didn't have their own rooms. They didn't have like their own stuff. It did not look like there was six, you know, like teenagers living in that house. So that was, that's a kind of a weird thing to think about as well. 

Yeah. So once the, um, so then once the police obviously were suspicious or thought that they may be fleeing from some type of investigation that was happening, then they were basically. considered "on the run" or a missing family. 

Their next sighting is at a SafeWay in Fort Bragg, California. Jen is seen on surveillance video alone, going into the Safeway at around 9:00 PM on March 25th. Uh, but there's nobody else with her. And that's her last known sighting on any surveillance video or anything after that, they go completely off the grid. And that was her last known whereabouts. And then it's only the next day on March 26th. There is reports that there is a car that went off a really high cliff, um, and into the, into the water below. And this gets reported. And then they, um, you know, emergency vehicles, emergency personnel respond to the scene and they find that there is multiple casualties inside the vehicle. Initially, they noticed that there are five bodies in the car, uh, noticeable. There's two adult females. And then there's two that they are noticeably children. And then there's one that they couldn't determine necessarily right away if it was a child or a teenager. Um, but they know that they have three, what they think is three kids and two adult females. Eventually they do identify those bodies- they can easily identify Jen and Sarah.

And then they, um, easily identify Marcus and Jeremiah as well as Abigail. Um, due to some information that, um, some family members had given about features that these three kids had. They were able to determine that those were the three children that they found, but that was only three, three children, unfortunately, that were in the, in the vehicle. And the other three were still unaccounted for and were considered a missing persons at this time. Um, so it's really, really sad. Jen or Sarah drove the car off the cliff to kill them all and commit suicide and then murder the children. But I can't understand, like, what I can't understand is why? Like, I don't understand.

So when they first did the investigation, like they figured it was just an accident, but then it's like, some people are like, well, how are you just drive off a cliff with a whole car full of people? And I mean, you could think like, well, you don't mean to you just drive off the cliff. But when you look at like the, where this is, it's not like it's a huge turn. And like, you turn too much, you don't turn enough, you go off the cliff. It's like, there's like this... It's like a place where I guess you would turn around. People use it as a turnaround if they're going the wrong way on this, like long mountainy or cliffy highway by the ocean. And like, it's when you look like the pictures that they have in this, um, documentary, like the like aerial video, it's like a straight road where this big like, row, like a big like dirt pull out on the side.

So it's like, you're going straight and you'd have to physically make the decision to turn off onto this where the cliff is. So it's not like, oh, there's a sharp turn and you fall off the cliff. It's like, you really would have to like, want to turn that way. So that makes it weird as well. Um... 

In the documentary, they also talk about like the highway investigators were on the case because, um, where it was deemed an accident, but they, they, they always have, when such a tragic, like any type of car accident they always have like a highway patrol, people who come investigate, like how the accident could have happened. And it was determined that like the brakes, cause there was no skid marks. So it was determined that the brakes were not used and, but the car accelerated off the cliff. So they could tell that like..

 Yeah, there was evidence that they had pulled in and stopped. 

Yeah.

 And then sped up and went off the cliff. And another weird thing is like, they found that like nobody was wearing seat belts in the car at all, which is, and they said, oh, well, Jen was like a real strict stickler for seat belts. It's like, why was nobody wearing seat belts? And to me, it's almost like, like, this is kind of morbid, but it's like, she could like that. Some people were saying like that the background of that would be like a perfect spot where she would get like a picture of like the entire family being like," oh, look at my amazing life. We're out by the ocean". So it's almost like she stopped the car." Everybody get your seatbelts off. We're getting out", everybody gets their seatbelts off and then, off the edge.

Like that's what comes to my mind. Kind of like a sick little thing that you thought would have happened. Yeah. But like, that kind of makes sense. Right? It's like the whole family, like, "oh, get your seatbelts off. We're going to go take another picture." Once all the seatbelts are off, she drives off the cliff.

So, so sad. But yeah, like you said, they were able to determine there was no skid marks and that obviously it was clear that the brakes weren't used in that if, obviously, if it was an accident, you would at least like try to, you know, put on the brake super quickly to avoid going off the cliff. 

It was like a straight shot off a cliff. And it wasn't like, she was like turning, trying to like, not do what it was, like stop and then accelerated off the cliff. So it was definitely intentional. 

Yeah. So, um, it was pretty clear. And then they did do some toxicology reports. So the toxicology reports came back and found out that Jen's, blood alcohol content was over the legal limit so she was somewhat intoxicated at the time of the crash. And I think that they, they were able to determine that Jennifer was the one that was driving, obviously if she was probably in the driver's seat. But, uh, so she was the one driving and her blood alcohol was over the legal limit. Um, and they also found that Sarah and two of the children had high amounts of Benadryl in their system as well. Like did. Jen and Sarah, like they gave the children Benadryl, so that they would be knocked out. Cause that was also in the documentary too. They said that maybe they'd given it to them so that they would fall asleep. And then, then they would like not be awake when they went off the cliff. So, I mean, I mean, I hate to say it's like, so they had had some compassion after all. It's like, oh, well they can't be awake for this. Or did they just do it so that they wouldn't be able to like, try to get out? 

Yeah. Or maybe to calm them down and make them drowsy. So they wouldn't realize what was happening or something or, you know? 

Yeah. They determined that the kids were given it like an hour before they drove off the cliff. So enough time for it to kick in. 

And then I wonder if they plan to do that, or Jen just kind of saw this cliff and saw it as an opportunity and just did it? In an article, uh, written for CNN by Madeline Holcomb, they searched Sarah's phone afterwards and they found like while the car was in motion, like those last few moments. Um, Sarah was on her phone, like searching things on Google and she was searching things like quote, "how easily can I overdose on over the counter medications?" Um, and "can 500 milligrams of Benadryl kill 125 pound woman?" And another thing she searched was "how long does it take to die from hypothermia while drowning in a car?"

And then there was also searches of, um, no kill dog shelters, because I guess they had two dogs that nobody was able to find afterwards. So maybe they cared about their dogs enough to give them to a no kill dog shelter. You know, it doesn't help the story at all, but that's just kind of what she was concerned about in their last, last moments.

One thing I was wondering too, like at the time I'm like, was it maybe like Jen was just, it was solely Jen who decided to do this? And like, it was Jen who also you know, gave the Benadryl to Sarah. I don't know.. She's an adult woman. I don't know how you'd make her and I was thinking maybe, maybe Sarah had nothing to do. And maybe Jen was using Sarah's phone to make those searches or something for some reason. Cause I couldn't wonder. I'm like, I don't know if we'll ever know if they were both in, on it together. 

Yeah. I was just going to say that I'm like, I'm wondering if this, if this was Jen's whole entire plan with just her, she's the one who decided that this is how they're going to die. This is because she wanted that control. She wanted to be in control of everything. So I'm wondering if Sarah just cause I don't see Sarah as, because she so like a, like a passive type of like shy person. I don't really see her having those type of thoughts to kill like her children. I feel like this was all Jen's idea and Sarah unfortunately, unfortunately was... 

Sarah had to take the Benadryl, like she's an adult woman. Like she takes ...

Jen could have spiked a drink or something like, or her food, maybe. I don't know. She could have. 

Yeah, that's true. Cause that's what I was wondering, like watching the documentary and everything. I was like, I wonder if it was just Jen and like Sarah was also a victim in this or if it was the two of them together and I also still can't figure out why, like I still can't figure out why it was like, if the only reason is that Jen was a control freak and she was losing control with all the CPS investigations and she just didn't want to lose and she wanted to regain control of the situation. And so that was her way of doing that. That's the only thing you could think of. Cause like there was never any reports or I could see that anything in her history that she was suicidal before. 

That's crazy that you said that, because that was my exact, my exact thought when I saw this was what you just said, AJ. Like that's my only thought, like she wanted to be in control of every, every situation in her entire life. And she was wanting to be in control of how these kids died and they wanted to die as a family. She wanted them to die together. So she, she needed that control before. And she, because she was losing control because everybody was basically up her ass about CPS and stuff like that. So they were like, yeah, going to get her no matter what.

 Her perfect, like this perfect facade of her life was like crumbling down. And it was like, it was better for her to like, you know, just wipe out her entire family than have to face, you know, that she did anything wrong. So yeah, I think it was all about control. 

Yeah. It's just really sad. And that's like the only motive that I can think of for that. Just so sad. And then also, so they did end up going on and they were able to identify two of the other children later on, there were bodies. I think that the other two weren't found like in the car, but they were found like in the water nearby soon after. And they were able to identify them as Sierra and Hannah. 

Yeah. One of them, they just found like skeletal remains of like a foot in a shoe or something. And then they had to do like DNA to figure out who it was, but they did figure out it was one of the daughters 

And they did find the jeans of Hannah that had H on it.

Oh yes. Hannah and Sierra were the two that were found like in the water, not in the car. And then they were never able to find Devonte's body. Um, so his body's never been recovered, but they did, like, they were able to, I guess, assume or deem that he was in the car at the time of the crash. So he was also a victim and they just guessed that his body was just swept out to sea.

It's like this sad irony. Like he was like portrayed as like this free spirit kid. And now it's like, his soul is like free out there somewhere. They can't find it. It's like this really sad, like whole circle and yeah. 

And he, and also it's eerie too. Like he was the one that was the most out there in the family. Like he was the one that went viral. He was when everyone knew and he was the one missing and his body was the one that was never found, even though he was the one that was the most seen out there. It's so sad. It's so it's so sad. I don't know. This, this case just really, really bothered me. I mean, obviously just for the subject matter, but like, I don't know, just sad 

They had to do, um, a coroner's inquiry. They had to go to court with a jury and everything to like determine the deaths of these children and yeah.

 And the jury is the one that determined that it was suicide and homicide rather than an accident. And another sad thing I think, um, is like what, how I mentioned before, um, like Devonte's older brother Dante. He was actually in jail when all this happened. And, um, he didn't even know that, that his siblings had died until six months after when he got out of jail and someone like, I don't, I forget how we found out, but someone just told them and like, it was like one of his, like, that was like one of the things that was giving him hope in his life was that he was gonna reunite with his siblings one day.

And like, he just, after he got taken from their aunt that day, like he just never, ever saw them again. And then they died. So it's just like, that's really sad for him as well. 

Yeah. And it's sad that like that one moment where he was the one that wasn't taken ended up being the thing that saved his life because the other six were, were doomed just because they were in....

Oh. So it makes you kind of think like, because like he acted out and he was like very emotional and aggressive and it was maybe if he, they did had taken him to like, maybe he would've fought back, you know, harder and something would have been more noticeable that these kids were in trouble if he was in that family as well. So it's kind of like, you know, you never know, but that's something that could have changed their lives as well. 

Yeah. And also, um, this case like reminded me a lot of the one that we did last season of Andrew Bagby, where just like a case of like the system completely failing this family. And like, there was opportunity after opportunity where like somebody could have intervened or something could have went drastically different and then it would have had majorly different results.

Like obviously the Andrew Bagby one was incredibly sad at the end too. Resulted in like, you know, her committing suicide with her child as well. So like this one just made me, it reminded...

 It's like she was losing control. And if these allegations were going to come out, she's going to lose her kids. So it was like, well, you know, if I can't have them, then nobody's going to, and I'm just going to kill the entire family right now. So that's why, yeah, it makes me think if  Sarah knew what was coming as it was happening, or if Jen just kind of like did it, but I'm not saying Sarah's innocent in all this. I mean, she had multiple opportunities, like it's her job as a mother to like, keep her kids safe, but she didn't do that.

Yeah. Like she was definitely in on like the abuse with Jen and like, she was complicit in that, but like whether she was a hundred percent in, on going off the cliff and killing everyone, if like that was a hundred percent her. Yeah. I just like, I can't understand. I can't, I just can't, I just can't understand the mindset of someone that would be so desperate for control that they're like, I'm going to take my own life and all of these other people's lives just because that's better than losing control of this situation.

Like it's just crazy to me. And it's also just one last thing before we wrap it up. But I was, I remember back in 2014, when that picture went viral, like I remember. And then, uh, when Steph, when you mentioned this case that you wanted to cover it for the show, I was like looking into it and I had no idea that that was him. Like that was a little kid. So I had this like, crazy, like moment of realization when I realized, like, that's the, that's the kid from the viral..? Like I had no idea and I didn't hear about the crash and stuff at the time that it happened back in 2018. So I didn't know, but that was like a shocking thing to realize.

I know when I was doing this case, like I was like, AJ, like I saw, like, I remember seeing his face on like social media, about the free hugs and like at the protest and all that. But then like, for some reason, I don't know why I never, ever heard of this case when it happened. I feel like it would have been all over the news, but for some reason didn't even know about it. So kind of weird. 

So this is really, really sad case, um, was just really frustrating. And of course, another case where this system just fails and there's not communication and like there's reports that aren't flagged. And just all of these things. 

Yeah. You can think of how sad it was like, there was a few allegations came out through it, but I mean, this was happening for like 15 years and it was like enough for it to show up that the kids like their growth was stunted. Like that's how badly they were being neglected and deprived of food. So I just imagine how long that must've been going on for that to affect them that badly. It wasn't just like a one-off or like a now and then punishment. It was like continual.

 At the time of the murders, Sierra was age 12. Abigail was aged 14. Jeremiah was 14. Devonte was 15. Hannah was 16 and Marcus was 19. So it's just really, really sad. Um, and just a shout out to Jessica Groves, uh, who sent us an email a little while ago with a list of case suggestions. And this was one of her, her suggestions for us. So thank you, Jess, for suggesting this case for us.

Um, it was definitely a very interesting one to cover. Very sad, very frustrating one. Yeah. So thanks for bringing it to our attention and yeah!

 As always hope you like the show. If you like, if you like what you hear, you want to follow us on social media, we're on Instagram @crimefamilypodcast, we're on Twitter @crimefamilypod1, on Facebook at Crime Family Podcast. And, you know, send us an email like Jessica did. And your case suggestion might be one that we pick to be on the show so that... you can email us at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com and like, subscribe or do all of the things that you do. Give us feedback, review us on apple podcasts, cause that helps people know about the show and what your thoughts are about it. And, uh, we'll see you next time. 

Bye! 

 See you 

later.