S02E13: THE BOTHAM JEAN CASE

Botham Jean

Steff: [00:00:00] Coming up on this episode of Crime Family,

AJ: She says like she saw a man like a tall silhouette of a man, like screaming at her, whatever she says. So it's, that kind of goes against, I mean, I'm sure he was screaming because some random person walked into his apartment, but

911 call: [911 call] 

Steff: hi guys. 

Welcome back to Crime Family. I'm your co-host Stephanie. And tonight I [00:01:00] have with me, my sister, Katie, and my brother, AJ. How are you guys doing tonight? 

Katie: Doing pretty good.

AJ: I'm good. Excited to hear about this case or talk about this case.

Steff: All right, sounds good. So I'm just going to dive right into this case. This case is called Botham Jean. So Botham Jean was a 26 year old Harding university graduate and he was working for an accounting firm, PWC. Uh, he was a sweet and kind man who was just so gentle and he would never hurt a fly. And according to all of his friends, he was like just a Teddy bear. He was just like a nice guy. When this tragedy happened, it just shocked his entire family and his friends and this case is just it's crazy.

And like, it makes you have a lot of questions. Just about the justice system and how this case played out. So I'm just going to get right to it. Botham Jean lived in apartment complex in Dallas, Texas. This building was an older building [00:02:00] and it looked the same on the inside and on the outside. And most of the floor plans of the apartment were exactly the same.

If you ever went to this apartment for the very first time, you would probably get confused. When I was looking at the floor plan and the pictures of the apartment, it was baffling to me how similar each floor was and like super crazy how similar they were. So Botham Jean lived on the fourth floor of this apartment complex and a girl named Amber Guyger, who was a police officer in the Dallas police force.

She lived on the third floor of this complex. On September 6th, 2018. Amber was just getting off a back shift. She had worked 14 or 15 hours. So when she got home, she was quite tired. So she got in her car and she drove to her apartment complex where she was living, which was the same as, like I said, as, uh, Botham Jean. Amber lived, like I said, lived on the third floor and Jean lived on the fourth floor.

So when Amber I got [00:03:00] off work that day, like she got out of her car, she walked up to the apartment complex and she walked into the door up to her apartment. But when she got to what she thought was her apartment, she noticed that the door was ajar. And so she kind of slowly walked in and it was dark .

She kind of like looked around and she noticed this man sitting in a chair, she gets spooked because she was just off duty. She was still in a uniform. So she fires a shot at first and the first shot, missed. And it startled Botham who was sitting in the chair. When he got up, Amber fired, another shot.

And this one hit him right in the chest. And Botham ended up falling to the ground. When she did the second shot, she then realized that she was in the wrong apartment. I don't know why it would take her that long. Maybe cause it was dark and it was late at night. I'm not sure. But anyway, she realized that she was in the wrong apartment after she shot Botham and he was lying on the ground.

She immediately calls [00:04:00] 9 1 1. And I'm going to play you that 911 tape, just a warning. There is some explicit language. So listener discretion is advised.

911 call: [911 call] 

 [00:05:00] Mean? I'm inside of the apartment with him. Come on. What's your name? I'm Amber Geiger. I need to get me on.

Okay. We have help on the way. I know my job. I thought it was more important. Okay. Hold on. Fuck. Okay. Stay with me. Okay.

Hey bud. Hey buddy.

We have[00:06:00] 

Hurry, please. They're on their way.

I mean, I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment. I could have sworn I parked on the third floor. Okay. I understand. No,

it was my apartment. My apartment.

I thought it was my apartment.

And then once I get code there, I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I thought it was my apartment. They're trying to get in there. There we have an officer there. You don't know the get-go. No. It was my apartment. I thought it was okay. And what, what floor are you in right now? The fourth story.[00:07:00] 

Okay. Where was she? Where was he shot? He's on the top, top left.

You're with Dallas PD, right? Yes.

Oh my God. I'm done.[00:08:00] 

Uh,

Yeah,

they're almost there. They're already there. They're trying to get to

my apartment. I thought it was my apartment.

Thought it was my apartment. Oh my God.[00:09:00] 

Oh, wait, do you hear them? Do you see them? No. No.

Over here over here. Okay. Go ahead and talk to you. No duty. I'm off duty. I thought I thought there was my apartment. I thought this was my floor.[00:10:00] 

Steff: So what do you guys think of this 9 1 1 call? So the first thing that I think is strict. Or it's crazy is the amount of, like she says in there, I'm going to lose my job, which is like, it seems to be that's her primary concern, which is crazy considering she just shot an innocent man. Um, she's thinking about her, her own self.

Also to the nine 11 operator. I find it very odd that the operator didn't like try to get her to do CPR or ask her anything about who she just shot. Like she kept saying like, oh, there's people on their way. Like she didn't say, have you tried CPR? Like, do you want to do CPR, blah, blah, blah, blah. She didn't do that.

AJ: And then also the third thing, I just find it weird that there was like a gun. This is like 10 o'clock at night. There's like gunshots and like people screaming, where are the rest of the people in the apartment building? Like, you don't hear anyone else in that tape. Like no one else comes to the door. No one else.

Like you can't hear many other voices until the police arrived. So I find it very strange that no one would like leave their apartment to investigate [00:11:00] this. I don't know. That's just me, but those are like my initial thoughts right off.\

Steff: Yeah. Going to your point about the operator, not asking to do CPR.

That's what I struck out to me when I listened to it. Because most often when we hear 9 11 calls, we hear them saying like, check for the pulse. Like, is, are they breathing? Like you should do CPR. And she didn't say any of that, which I thought was maybe she was new. Maybe she was inexperienced. I don't know.

Like, I feel like that's the first thing I would do, but I'm not a 9 1, 1 operator. So. 

Katie: Like AJ said for me, the first thing that stood out as well was how she was like, oh, I'm going to lose my job. Like, I'm fucked. That was kind of her first thing. And she says, I thought it was my apartment, like a million times defending herself.

And yeah, also it sounds like she's just standing there talking on the phone. Like she doesn't go over to the guy. She's not like, like you said, CPR or anything. And even if the operator was new she's like a police officer. This should be part of her training as well to help somebody maybe because she was a police officer she was more used to like seeing people in that situation. So she wasn't, you know, [00:12:00] like, oh my God, what did I do? Like, I just shot somebody. Cause that's her job sort of, but I don't know. It does just seem very quiet. Like you said, there is panic in her voice, but not like, let me help you. Like, oh my God.

How are you? What's your name? It does sound like she's just standing there talking on the phone waiting. So that's super strange.

AJ: Yeah. And I guess like, there is panic in her voice, but to me it like, the panic sounds like the panic for herself, what this is going to mean for herself and her job versus the panic of this person that she just shot, who might die, which is kind of crazy.

Katie: I find it weird that she doesn't really comfort the guys, you just shot very much. She was just like, Hey bud, Hey bud. Like, I'm sorry, but nothing else. Like, you're going to be okay. Like I called helps on the way. How are you? And stuff like that, which I think just seems like common sense, especially for a police officer first responder.

Steff: That's what I was thinking too. Like, I feel like she seems super calm. I mean, yes, she keeps saying. I'm in the wrong apartment. Like, I didn't know if my apartment. 

AJ: Like she does seem frantic. You could hear the panic in her voice, [00:13:00] but it's a very like about herself.

Steff: I was going to say she's more panicked about herself, the losing her job and what people are going to think of her.

And not like she just shot some innocent person, like who cares about your fucking job? 

AJ: Yeah. And also, like I said too, like I just find it like, where is everybody else in the apartment building? I don't understand. There's like, nobody, you can't hear anyone else in the background the whole time, except for the police that eventually come..

But like wouldn't other people leave their apartments and like check out what's going on. They just hear gunshots and people screaming. Like, I don't know, to me, that's just bizarre.

Katie: Maybe but if I heard a gunshot, I'm not sure I'd run into my apartment and like go to the gunshot. I'd probably like lock my door and call the police rather than be like, Hey, what's going on over there?

AJ: Yeah, I guess, I guess. And also it's really sad because you can hear him, you can hear him like moaning in the background as he's like basically dying, which is really hard to hear too. Like if you listen closely. There's like moments where you can hear him like groaning. 

Katie: Yeah. I heard that that was uncomfortable.

Steff: After she calls [00:14:00] 9 1, 1, the officers show up, they do CPR on him and Jean was rushed to the hospital, but unfortunately he died on the way.

Now they're looking at like the potential homicide. It took about three days for anything to really happen after that incident. So on September 9th, 2018. So like I said, three days later, an arrest warrant was issued for Amber and she was charged with manslaughter. She was released on $300,000 bond and was fired from her job at the Dallas police station.

AJ: So I think it's important also to know just a couple of things about the murder laws in Texas, because Texas kind of. Like their system is just a little bit different, which is kind of weird. They don't have the typical, like first degree, second degree kind of levels of murder that a lot of other places do.

So they have like, their top charge would be his capital murder. So that would be, I guess, the equivalent of what a first degree murder charge would be. Um, and then it kind of [00:15:00] deescalates from there. So then the second one down would just be murder. Um, and then they have manslaughter, which is a step below that.

AJ: And then they, their fourth level. Um, is criminally negligent homicide. So those are kind of like the way that they go. So like her being initially charged with manslaughter, it's basically like the third level down, which is kind of crazy to me, but I think it's just an important note just to kind of get an idea of how Texas does there.

Katie: So if this wasn't Texas, the third level down would be third degree murder. Is that what it would be? 

AJ: They do have, I mean, obviously manslaughter does exist in other places. Like when you think of manslaughter, it's like recklessly causing the death of an individual is what it is. Like I think you think of you know, a drunk driver, like a hit and run kind of thing. So the fact that she was charged with manslaughter it's yeah, like their third would be, I guess, third degree murder. So it's like a level down from capital murder and murder.

Katie: I think it would be manslaughter though. Right? Cause it was like an accident, which is what means lottery is.

AJ: [00:16:00] But I think like, I think maybe we should go a little bit further on, I think like, cause it was a big, it was quite an upset that she was initially charged with manslaughter. Like people thought it should have been more. I think just, I mean, I guess if you look at the definition it's like negligent. Which causes death, which I guess she did, but there were people who thought that it should have been murdered.

Steff: If you think about like her first initial thing was to shoot someone like shoot that person. To me, it's kinda like, I mean, yeah, maybe that she was kind of scared because she thought somebody was in her apartment. I get that. But like, I don't know if my first instinct would to be, to shoot somebody.

Katie: Well, especially with it's a cop you'd think shooting someone as the last resort, not that's the first thing you do when you're scared.

I dunno. I like, cause when I think about like Sephora understand this, like when we used to live in Halifax at the apartment building we used to live in was super similar. The floors and all the apartments were very similar. You could walk into someone's apartment and not realized whose apartment you were in.

Cause it looks so similar. Obviously we like, I'm not a cop [00:17:00] and I don't have the same mindset. So I, but I do like feel for her that it was an accident and that she's like, oh shit, but because she's a cop, you'd think she'd have a little bit more. 

AJ: I think, I guess you can understand in the moment that she's made a rash decision, it was a mistake, whatever, but I, I kind of, I don't, my sympathy for her is kind of a little bit low.

I just, I kind of think of it as like a, as a cop. I think it goes to show you like the training of cops. It's like, they kind of like train you to shoot first. Cause you think that this is in the states, this is the Southern US. And I think that the fact that this was a white cop and this was an innocent unarmed black man, like I think also too.

I don't know. I just think they're so quick to, to draw their weapon and like, shoot, before you- I don't understand how you go from like one extreme, like, okay. Even if she thought it was somebody in her apartment, if she thought it was a burglar, why wouldn't she just like back out of the apartment and call for backup?

Like, that would be one thing to do. Like, why is her initial reaction to like shoot this person? I don't know. I just think there's like a lot of actions that could have. She could have turned the light on. Maybe. It was, it was dark in [00:18:00] there, which she didn't, she didn't turn the light on. 

Katie: Well, I think, you know, in some states there are the, what is it called? I forget, like defend yourself law or something where you are allowed to shoot somebody if they're in your apartment regardless, or they're in your house or they're on your property, you can shoot them. No questions asked. And so maybe that's kind of where she went first, just defending herself. But yeah, like you said, there's a lot of things she could have done before she went to like shoot to kill.

Do we know like how seasoned of a police officer? She was? 

AJ: Yeah, she was 30 years old. And she had been at the Dallas police force for like, just about five years or so.

Katie: I think five years on the job is still long enough to kind of know the ins and outs. 

AJ: I think one important thing is they determined that he had like a big red mat outside of his door, that she didn't have outside of her apartment.

So like, even that, you know, should have been like a sign that she was not in the right apartment. Maybe. I don't know if [00:19:00] she was tired. She wasn't thinking straight, but you think having a big red mat outside your door when you know that you don't have one would be like a clue. 

Katie: Yeah, that seems like it'd be way obvious.

And also the fact that the door was open a little bit. You think she would have like came in like cautiously, maybe she did, but you know, it would've been like, you know, like who's here or like, what do you want or something like that rather than, you know, guns blazing right away. 

Steff: Yeah. It's so hard to say, like what could have went differently in that situation.

Cause like, you know, we were not there. Like I could say, like if I walked into my apartment, somebody was there my first instinct would be either back up and go to the nearest place and be like, so somebody in my apartment. It's just her side of the story. Right. I mean, we'll get it. Um, obviously I'm going to get into like the rest of, of the case and like how crazy it was.

But I do feel kind of bad for her at the time when I was doing this case. But.

AJ: I don't. 

Steff: You don't feel bad for her? 

AJ: Not really. I mean, obviously like when you think of it, it's like, yeah, it was probably a mistake, obviously. Like she didn't know [00:20:00] this man as far as we know, so it's not like she had an intention to do it, but like, so yes, it was a mistake and I do feel bad in that way, but also like, how is it rational to just draw your weapon and shoot some body.

As you're like first reaction. Like, I don't think that's like, I don't have sympathy for someone who does that. 

Steff: My thought process has changed when I, while I was doing this case. Cause at the beginning I was like, oh yeah, I feel sorry for her. Like, there's just a mistake. But as I read, read more about this case and I'll, I'll get into more of it.

I'm kinda like, oh, this person is not really the greatest. So on September 11th, 2018 Jean's family attorney Lee Merritt said that Amber's story is highly implausible . He doesn't believe any of the story that Amber is telling. He thinks that what she did was like, was like a horrible thing. And he just doesn't agree with it.

Also on that same day, The Jean family had a Memorial for Botham and hundreds of friends and family had gathered. People from his graduation class paid their respects. And it was a very emotional time. [00:21:00] It took about two months for things to get really going in the investigation. In November of 2018, Amber's manslaughter charge was upgraded to murder and she could face life in prison.

So like AJ said, it's not capital murder. So it would be second degree murder.

AJ: The equivalent of a second degree murder charge technically. 

Steff: Yeah. So she went from manslaughter charges to murder charges. Once the investigation started. And to make matters a little bit more difficult for the investigation.

Two months later in January 20th, 2019, a woman who had filmed the situation after the shooting was claiming that she was receiving death threats and she had like uploaded the video to social media. It's not a great video to upload and I don't know why she would do it. Just probably for publicity. The video that she uploaded was of Amber. Like distressed. 

She was still wearing her like uniform. She was pacing back and forth. The video was just of [00:22:00] Amber, like looking very suspicious. She was just pacing back and forth. She looked very like distraught.

AJ: I don't think the video made Amber look like she was pacing back and forth. She was talking on the phone, pacing back and forth in the hallway.

Like, I don't think it didn't really add anything to the case. Like, yeah. She's, I'm sure she's stressed. She's pacing back and forth talking on the phone, but people were like, oh, she released this video. It doesn't change. It. Didn't change anything. 

Katie: But I guess it did show that she wasn't like in there comforting him or helping him at all.

She was kind of outside of the apartment so that maybe didn't help her at all. 

AJ: Yeah, that's true. I'm a little unclear of like, when it was though, like maybe that was after the police had arrived and like maybe after like the ambulance and stuff, was there, like maybe that was after, like, I don't know if it was during the 911 call.

Oh, we know. I can see, you can see her on the phone pacing, but I don't know who she's talking to because I think there were reports that it was like she was talking to. Like one of her, like where her partner or something like it wasn't during the 9 1 1 tape. 

Katie: Oh, okay. I thought it was doing 9 1 1. So that guess makes a difference for sure.

AJ: I'm pretty sure it was [00:23:00] after the nine one one call because like during the 911 call she's in the apartment, she must be because you can hear him moaning in the background. So she's obviously close to him. But in this other video, she's pacing in the hallway. Like it's taken from like the stairwell pointing up.

Like you can see her, like at the top, walking back and forth, like talking on the phone. I don't think it's super clear what she's saying. 

Steff: I'm wondering maybe if it's after she calls 9 1 1 and like, or maybe it's before she calls 9 1 1, I'm not really sure. Like, I've been thinking maybe it's after then she's waiting for the police to come.

Katie: Yeah. Or maybe the police are already there and people have seen the police come and go and they know something's going on. That's what drew the attention or maybe the gunshot did that itself. I don't know.

Steff: Yeah. It's just, it's really unclear of the timeline of that video. But anyway, the lady who posted that video and took the video, she was complaining about receiving death threats.

And she was also fired from her job after she uploaded the video. Which, I mean, I guess there's laws against that. Like, I guess it's frowned upon to upload videos. I mean, it makes sense if it's a [00:24:00] serious crime, but anyway, she lost a job over it. It just had no really relevance to the case really because the police didn't really seem to think it was any extra information that they needed. 

AJ: So there were reports that even like the main police investigator in this investigation, like he even said, I believe it was during his testimony and the trial that he had actually himself went to the wrong floor on a couple of occasions in this apartment complex because the floor plans were so similar. So they actually interviewed like almost 300 residents in that apartment complex. And 46 of them had said that they had walked to the wrong floor before and put their key in the door. And of those 46, 38 were from the third and fourth floors. So like there are other accounts of that happening to other people.

Not obviously it doesn't excuse what Amber did like. You know, .

Steff: That's crazy. 

AJ: [00:25:00] Yeah. And that, um, is actually that, uh, information or report is from the Dallas morning news, just FYI. 

Katie: So I guess it helps her that other people have done this and it's not uncommon or unbelievable that she walked into the wrong apartment, but I mean, those other people weren't police officers. They didn't have a gun, right. She should've been more vigilant just because of her job, even though she was tired. I mean, still.

AJ: Technically it is Southern US. Probably everyone has a gun, even if you're a police officer or not. 

Katie: Yeah I guess that's true. 

Steff: I just do do find that statistic of people going into the wrong apartment kind of startling, but I guess if you looked at the floor plan, it's very similar.

Each floor is so I could see the confusion for sure. So I took about a year for the trial to actually begin. And on September 2nd, 2019, the night before the trial was to begin the district attorney, John Cusack took part in the interview, even though he was ordered [00:26:00] not to. And he was given a gag order, which was issued by judge Tammy Kemp back in January of that same year, this gag order was given after John had questioned the jurors, which they stated that they did not see any of the coverage on the media.

And that's when Kemp denied the defense motion of a mistrial and the juries were sequestered until the trial officially began. So like, it was kind of like shady work going on behind the scenes of the district attorney. He was like trying to get some insight of the juries if they like were too bias toward the case, or they're trying to get some information and trying to like basically not have this go to trial, which makes me think that he kinda knew she might be found guilty, but I'm not really sure why he would do that. But anyway, that wasn't like right before the trial was supposed to happen like two days before. So that's kind of sketchy on September 24th, 2019. That's when the trial [00:27:00] began. A year after the shooting had happened. The prosecution pleaded to the jury to convict Amber on murder because she never gave Jean the opportunity to deescalate the situation. And there was no opportunity for him to surrender before Amber opened, fire in his apartment. But her defense lawyer says that the jury should see that Amber is not guilty and that she made a bad mistake, but she's not an evil person, but the prosecution thinks that she was just this person who came in the apartment and shot him.

And didn't really think too hard. So right off the get go there's a lot of back and forth with the defense attorney and the prosecution. And it got pretty heated. The trial unfolded in a very diverse city in Dallas. Dallas is 42% Hispanic, 29% non-Hispanic white and 24% black. And it has people of colour in almost every major leadership role in the city.

Um, the mayor of [00:28:00] Dallas, chief police officer, and the Dallas county district attorney or all black people. And so was the judge who presided in the, in Amber'scase and of the 12 jurors and four alternate jurors, seven are African-American and four are white and the others are of different ethnics. So you can see there's a lot of diversity in that city.

So the defense thinks that Amber was treated unfairly during her trial, which I don't really see. What do you guys think? Does it make a difference how diverse, like the jury is in the outcome of, of a trial?

AJ: Well, I think for sure, especially when it's a case about police brutality against someone like a black person, right?

Like I think if you have a, a jury that's made up of a lot of people of color, like they're probably going to come to a different conclusion, then, you know, a jury that's full of all white people. I mean, I don't know, obviously you can make assumptions, but like, that would be my guess. 

Katie: When you think about it, you'd think like, well, it [00:29:00] shouldn't make a difference, but if the jury was all white, it would be like, well, you know, they were all white and she's white.

If they were all black, it would be like, oh, well they're against her because you know, she killed the black man and she's white and they're all black. So I think the diversity definitely helped because it wasn't like swayed one way or the other based on race. And I was gonna, I was gonna ask about that.

Because it could obviously very easily turn into like a racist thing, but there was lots of diversity. So I feel like that definitely helped the perception that it was fair.

AJ: But you said that had the majority of the jury was black, right? 

Steff: Yes. Yep. There was 12 jurors, four alternates, and seven of those were African-American and four were white and the others were of different ethnic groups.

I do think it makes a big difference in the trial, for sure. When I read that stat, like when I was reading, like the percentages, I found that really interesting. So on the first day of the trial, the juries were shown this body cam footage of the officers arriving on the [00:30:00] scene and the confusion after the shooting and Amber directing them inside of Jean's apartment.

And then you can hear in the body cam, you can hear Amber repeating saying, like, I thought this was my apartment, like a half a dozen times.

Body Cam: [Body [00:31:00] cam audio].

 [00:32:00] 

Uh,

Steff: What did you [00:33:00] guys think of the footage? It had a lot of information in that one video I found. 

AJ: And it was kind of like eerie. I don't know, like just seeing real footage of, you know, real time of the police responding and trying to resuscitate him and Amber freaking out and all that stuff. Like, it's just kind of eerie and sad, honestly, when, you know, when you know what, you know, what the result is, it's sad.

Katie: Seeing it, from that perspective is so much different than like pitching it in your head or when you watch it on TV, like shows what happens. Like it's so different to see it actually happening in real life, I guess. To me, it's just, doesn't seem like the situation is as frantic as I would picture it.

Like, you'd think people would be freaking out like people running everywhere. And, but I guess that's, you know, they're trained to keep calm, but it doesn't seem as frantic as I would think it would be. [00:34:00] 

AJ: Yeah, I guess the police are probably, yeah, it's probably normal to see police, like having somewhat contained, but I guess you're not just not really expecting it, considering the situation.

So it's kind of like jarring to see it. 

Katie: Yeah. And obviously the police can't be like freaking out. They have to stay calm. Cause if they're freaking everyone's going to be freaking. So yeah. It's just surprising to see from that perspective.

Steff: When I was watching the body cam like all I could, like, I see the officers helping Botham and like trying to like, be like resuscitate him and talking to him and stuff, but all I, all I see is Amber like pacing back and forth. And she continued to keep saying, like, I thought this was my apartment , like I thought, they thought, well, she cares why she thought like, this was her apartment. Like, okay, we get that. You thought this was your apartment, but that's over now.

AJ: The only cop freaking out is Amber.

Katie: Yeah. That's what I was going to say too. Probably like she's in shock and she's just trying to like rationalize it to herself, like how this could happen. And that's all she can think of is like, that's why. Cause she thought it was her apartment. And I don't think she's just saying it over and over again to like hit home the point that it wasn't her fault.

I think she was just in [00:35:00] shock. 

AJ: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think to be somewhat fair. I mean, like, I know I've been harsh on her this whole time, but I think to be somewhat fair. Like she's probably in shock as well. So like, that's just, she keeps saying it in her mind because she keeps saying it out loud.

Cause that's just like, you know, she goes into shock. So she's probably not even aware that she's even saying it that many times. And like, obviously everyone knows that my now, cause she said it 8,000 times. 

Steff: But yeah, like when I was like, when I first watched the video, I was like, this is probably like all the information I kind of need to like get this case going because when I watched that body cam I'm like, wow, this has so much detail.

Kind of painted like this bigger picture of what actually went on during that crime scene. 

AJ: Like for me, cause I can't wrap my mind around the fact nobody's saying like, okay, you make the mistake, you go to the wrong apartment. Like I'm sure people do that all the time. Like if you're really tired and like there's...

people have stories of like, you know, you kind of on autopilot, like people drive to work and they don't even remember, you know, how they got there or stuff like that. So I understand that happens, but I don't understand how you [00:36:00] can go from going to the wrong apartment to like shooting a man within like however long it was .Like as an initial reaction, instead of like backing away, calling for backup, turning on the light. I don't know, like 8 million other things. Like to me, it's just crazy that that would be her first reaction. 

Steff: Yeah. Like to me, like going , like when they're talking about her, like entering the apartment, Botham was just like sitting in his chair, like eating a bowl of ice cream.

Like he wasn't like threatening you just eating, like having like a night in enjoying his bowl of ice cream and watching TV or doing whatever he was doing. So I feel like you walked into someone eating ice cream. I don't think my initial like, oh,eating ice cream, let's shoot him. 

AJ: And then, and that's also too, I think is like a little bit, the fact that he was just sitting down, like on the couch or whatever eating ice cream, like, it goes against sort of, I think she says, like she saw a man, like a tall silhouette of a man, like screaming at her, whatever she says.

So it's, that kind of goes against, I mean, I'm sure he was screaming cause some random person walked into his apartment, but when you have that image of him just sitting on the couch, eating ice [00:37:00] cream, like it doesn't scream. Like .

Katie: Yeah , it wasn't like he was hiding somewhere where she couldn't see him or like in the other room and she happened to like walk in while he was like, you know, standing there being sketchy. He just like sitting there eating. Right. So it's definitely a super different than if he was like coming at her or standing there looking like he was hiding or something. 

Steff: And according to Botham's like family, like he was this just kind gentle person.

So I feel like you wouldn't have this like aggressive towards Amber, like, I feel like he would probably be startled that you walked into a department, but I don't think he would kind of like attack her. I just feel like the situation where it's like just went from zero to a hundred in like 2.2 seconds.

AJ: Yeah, that's true. And also another good point. I watched a, um, I watched a video. Um, it's like, uh, Dr. Todd Grande, like he has a YouTube channel and he like talks about like high profile cases and he kind of psychoanalyzes some of the people involved. But anyway, he says he brought up a good point of like Amber lived alone.

So [00:38:00] even if it was her apartment, he mentioned the fact that like, it's not, like there would have been anyone in the apartment that she, if she thought it was a burglar, like, oh, I have to protect somebody who's living there. It's like, no, she's alone. If she leaves the apartment and backs away, there's no one else that's in harm's way immediately.

So it's not like she felt that she had to protect, you know, anyone else who might've been living there. It was like, she felt like she had to protect herself, but she was literally in the doorway. She could've just walked away, you know, called for backup. Like it's just so baffling to me.

Katie: Yeah. It's not like she was like trapped in some room and somebody came in, it was like, she was in the door.

She could have, yeah, like backed up and she could have talked to him in the doorway. Like, what are you doing? And stuff like that. She wasn't in harms way at all. And neither was anybody else. So yeah, it is kind of crazy that she just thought to shoot as her first reaction. 

AJ: Yeah. And there was also, apparently there was some witnesses who testified and came forward and stuff and said that like they had heard her say things like, let me in, let me.

Like a few times, like repeating that. So I don't know. Let me in, like, if her story is right where the door is [00:39:00] ajar, she could go in, like, why would she be saying that? So either they misheard it or something else happened that we're not aware of. I don't know. But .

Steff: Yeah, like if that was her apartment, why would she say, let me in, if she lived alone, like who would be in her apart-like that doesn't make any sense.

Katie: Yeah. And at that point she would have known somebody who was in there. Why would she be fighting to get into her apartment if she lived alone in someone's in there. Right. You think she'd definitely turned around and called the police right away. Like that doesn't make sense either of those situations.

Steff: Yeah. That's true. Even if she did live alone and the door was shut, let's say, and it was her apartment, why would she say, let me in.

AJ: Yeah. So like, I don't know if that person who said that, like misheard it or I don't know. So like, I can't say for sure that that's exactly what was said, but that did come out that they said that they heard that.

So, and obviously we'll never know because the only people who were there were Amber and Botham, so.

Steff: Yeah, that's really interesting . So yeah, this case just keeps getting crazier and crazier. On the second day of the [00:40:00] trial, which was September 25th, David Armstrong, who was the lead Texas Rangeron the homicide case, testified without the jury present.

Now, I'm not sure why the jury wasn't present at this time. Like, I don't know, like I know in some cases sometimes they don't attend the trial, but I don't understand what the purpose of. Of them not being there. 

Katie: Maybe the judge wanted to make sure that it was going to be admissible. And so he didn't want the jury to hear it and sway them and then tell them about it afterwards.

Like that's all I can think of. 

AJ: Yeah. That makes sense. 

Steff: Oh yeah. I never really thought about that yeah, but that does make sense. David Armstrong, who was the lead? Texas ranger basically said that like he didn't based on the information in the, throughout the investigation that he didn't see that Amber committed a crime and that what she did was reasonable for her to see Botham as a threat.

AJ: He was sitting on the couch, eating ice cream. He's not a threat. [00:41:00] Saying he's a threat is ridiculous. 

Steff: So the judge didn't like she didn't allow him to like state his own opinion. When I read what David said, it really caught me off guard because I was like, I don't know how he could say it was reasonable for what she did and was reasonable for her to see. Botham as a threat. 

Katie: Yeah. I don't agree with that because if that was me coming in there and to my apartment, someone's in there then. Yeah. Obviously I'm going to be startled. I'm not a police officer, but you know, I'd turn around and get the hell out.

AJ: I screamed out in the hallway, like help someone do my apartment are called the police I'd run away.

Steff: So yeah, like for him to think that what she did was not a crime and that it was okay for what she. I don't understand. I don't understand why he would say that. Like I don't get yeah.

Katie: And not like he had a weapon pointed at her or something. Right. Then maybe that'd be reasonable, but you know, he, he was armed with a fucking spoon, you know? So it doesn't make any sense. 

AJ: Yeah. No matter how you twist a, you're not going to make it reasonable that [00:42:00] she had like, cause for what she did. I think we can all agree. Like I'm sure everyone can agree that like, yeah. It's not like she had a malicious intent. Like she didn't know this person. She's not like I'm gonna go and then kill this person and then say I was in the wrong apartment. Like obviously it was a mistake. We can all agree that. But I think also we can agree that it was very excessive force and it was crazy for her to resort to that. 

Steff: Yeah. So Amber did testify in her own defense during the trial. Uh, she goes on to tell the jury that she was scared to death when she opened the door.

She said that her heart was racing really, really fast. She was overcome with emotions and she broke down crying. Kept saying like, I'm so sorry, over and over again. She basically pleaded for her life really trying to like pull at the heartstrings of the jury. 

AJ: She can be sorry for what she did. Like she might be genuine in that.

So it doesn't excuse what she did. Like he's dead as a result of her actions. 

Katie: Yeah. I completely agree that she's probably sorry. And it was an accident, but it was completely [00:43:00] preventable. It's not like nothing could have prevented this. It was so many things that could have prevented it. So I do feel like she's sorry she has remorse, but it shouldn't have happened.

AJ: I think there's also too, like during the time and the trial was happening with the investigation, like there was kind of a lot of outcry too, because there was a lot of like, the media was trying to slander Botham's name because they reports came out saying that he had like a large amount of marijuana in his apartment when they searched his apartment or whatever, like, you know, trying the typical, trying to, you know, shame him as somehow that it doesn't matter.

Like who cares, like he could have had, like, you know, you could have had like 50 marijuana plants in his apartment. That doesn't mean that she can come in and into his own apartment and kill him. So there's a lot of that going on too.

Steff: Just seems like a lot of hate for this person who like-

AJ: Racism. 

Steff: Yeah. Like, I feel like it just a lot of racism for this one, man, who, everyone whose family just like would never hurt anybody.

It's just so sad to see like people slander his name and like yet [00:44:00] he's the one that's dead and his family have to like greave over his loss. And yet we have this officer who. they're saying, "Oh, yeah. It's okay. Like what you did", whatever.

AJ: I have yet to think of one logical reason as to why the fact that he had marijuana in his apartment is relevant to anything.

Like, I can't think of that. 

Katie: No, I can't think of a relevant reason at all why having marijuana in your apartment makes it okay.

AJ: So like this, so somebody can come in and shoot you like, and I can't say for sure, but I would probably bet a large amount of money that if it was a white person that was shot, they would not have released that information. Just my speculation. 

Katie: Well, yeah, there was no point to saying that at all. Like what does that, that's not going to prove anything. It doesn't prove anyone's point.

AJ: Trying to like justify in any way possible, trying to justify the fact that what she did was okay. When everyone, I think with common sense knows it wasn't..

Steff: So, yeah, so basically she was just trying to like plead for her life and trying to like pull at the heartstrings of the juries, but kind of get the sense that the [00:45:00] jury isn't really buying her story. So on September 30th, the jury began their deliberations and on October 1st, so like a day later, October, first, 2019, the jury found Amber guilty of murder.

Now she's guilty of murder. Then they had to go through this whole sentencing thing. So this is where the case takes this whole like, yes she was found guilty, but this is where like we find out like if it's life or whatever, but this is where the case takes quite the twist. And she could face between five to 99 years in prison.

During the first day of her sentencing hearing the jurors were shown a few Pinterest posts that Guyger had commented on and these posts were found by the prosecutor when they were doing their investigation. One of the posts was a picture of a military sniper with the text that said, ''stay [00:46:00] low, go fast, kill first die last. One, shot one, kill, no luck. All skill. And the other one was a picture of , uh, was a minion from the movie Despicable Me. And the comment that Guyger had written said, quote, "people are so ungrateful. No one ever thanks me for having the patients not to kill them." Unquote, do you guys have any thoughts about those?

AJ: I mean, I knew that before you started telling this case, cause I knew quite a bit about the case and that's why I didn't really have sympathy for her. So I don't think she's a great, very good person.

Steff: When I read those, that's when, like my attitude towards her change. I didn't have any sympathy for her after that.

Katie: Yeah. I mean, they don't make her look good, but I mean, I don't think they make it look like she meant to do it either. Like there's always memes and like posts where people are always like, oh, the people I work with, you know, they're lucky yeah, I don't snap. Like [00:47:00] things like. I dunno. I see that all the time from people I know.

And so it doesn't make me think that they're going to actually do it. So I don't know. It doesn't make her look good, but it also, I don't feel like she meant to do it either. 

AJ: Yeah. Like I don't think it necessarily has any like, has bearing on like saying that she meant to kill him. But I think it just goes to show like her attitude towards like, or like the toxicity of like the police department or, you know, they're so quick to, to shoot or pull the trigger and they're so, you know, gun happy and like, I dunno, I just think that sort of attitude is exists. So like being a part of that culture for five years, that she was like, part of that's going to rub off on you. So obviously I don't think she went home that night with the intention to kill this man.

But like, if she didn't have that like toxic mindset, then maybe she wouldn't have like went to her gun so quickly. 

Katie: Yeah. And I guess that the sniper one, she obviously, you know, has a fascination with guns and likes guns. Every police officer, you know, isn't like [00:48:00] that. I guess she was kind of like proud maybe that she knew how and could use a gun.

And that was kind of her job. And, you know, look at me, I have a gun kind of thing. So yeah, it does make me feel less sympathetic towards her, for sure. 

Steff: Yeah. That's what, that was my feeling as well. Like I don't have any, really any sympathy for her after reading those comments. 

AJ: And other important information. So like, I know Steff, you mentioned the Pinterest posts, which obviously don't make her look super great. But there was also like some text message exchanges that she had, um, between a few different people that kind of came to light during the trial. Um, so one of the exchanges was actually between her and a man named Martin Rivera, which was actually her, her police partner that she, it ended up coming out that she was having an affair with him around the time of like when the whole case happened.

One of the exchanges came in January, 2015. And that was like during the parade, uh, [00:49:00] somebody had asked her, when does this end LOL? And then, uh, she responded with when MLK is dead dot, dot, dot, oh wait, dot , dot dot. And then there was another exchange between her and Martin where they were kind of mocking some of the black officers.

So Rivera had written to her, "Damn. I was at the area with five different black officers, not racist, but damn". And then Amber said , "Not racist, but just have a different way of working. And it shows". And then there was another exchange, which was actually like a few days before all of this happened. It was actually on September 4th, 2018.

And someone had texted her. She was like, kind of like just playfully, you know, offering Guyger a German shepherd. And so this person Etheridge is the name that's written in the reports, but Etheridge had written to her, was offering her this dog and said, "Although, she might, she may be racist". And then Amber said, "I wish I could have one, but not in this apartment smaller than my old [00:50:00] one."

And then she said, "It's okay. I'm the same." Basically saying, like saying, oh, although the dog may be racist and then Amber, her response was it's. Okay. I'm okay. So not showing her in the best light to say the least. 

Katie: Yeah. That definitely makes me think differently of her. Now, like when you said before that you don't feel bad for her. I kind of like don't anymore either.

AJ: That's why I said from the beginning, I didn't, but I guess, because I knew everything.

Katie: She kind of sucks and like, maybe that's why she was so fast to pull her gun out on like a black man, because she had those kind of racist feelings to start with. 

Steff: Yeah. I always find it interesting when like, None of this information came up during her, like her murder trial.

Like, I feel like some of that stuff was hidden and they just brought it up at our sentencing to be more damaging. And like, they knew that like, if they brought this up, then they would, there's no way she could kind of defend herself and be like, oh, well, these aren't true. But like, when you have like such damaging evidence like that, it's so hard to like, think positive about, [00:51:00] oh, I'm going to get out of here. Anyways.

I just thought she was a shitty person after I read all those and found out about that. So I don't really have any respect for her anymore. So her sentencing trial didn't get off to a great start for her. Those are pretty big red flags when it comes to sentencing somebody. So after like, after all that information came out, the jury came back with the sentencing of 10 years for murdering Botham, which is not a lot at all. 

I don't even, like, I can't understand why was only 10 years, but after she was sentenced to 10 years, Botham's brother who was 18 approached Amber and gave her a hug and forgave her for what she did. Um r family. It's it was quite hard to watch. I'm going to show you the video of Botham's brother talking at the sense of the hearing and what he does afterwards. 

Court Room Audio [Court Room Audio]

Steff: So, what did you think of that video? 

AJ: Yeah. That makes me sad when I watch it. Just like, I don't know. It's just, I never really seen that before. Like somebody who is just able to do that to somebody who killed their brother. 

Katie: It like definitely shows how good of a person, Botham's brother is to be able to just sit there and forgive her like that.

And how strong too. And, you know, that's probably the only way he's going to be able to move on and feel better is if he's able to forgive. But I mean, a lot, I know a lot of people would never be able to do that. 

Steff: Yeah. I find it really heart-wrenching to watch and it's something we don't see very often of the victim family coming over and hugging.

The killer and like, saying like, I forgive you kinda puts it like in a surreal way. Like, yes, it's a horrible thing of what she did, but , in his eyes, he can forgive her for what she did, because maybe if he forgives her, then he can kind of move on and honor Botham the way he should be honored.

I don't really know, like I've never been in that situation. So I don't really know what what's going through his mind at the time. 

AJ: And he says it in the video. He says, Botham wouldn't want you to, he wouldn't want you to go to jail forever. I know that he would want me to forgive you. And that's what he said he's going to do.

So, yeah, it's, it's sad. And like everyone, and when you watch the video and like, are, you can probably hear it in the, in the audio clip, but like everyone in the whole courtroom is I crying when it's happening. So it was sad. 

Steff: So yeah. What do you guys think about like her just getting like 10 years, I feel like she should be, get way more than that.

Like, just because of her character in the way she handled the situation and stuff like that. 

AJ: 100%. I think she got up 40 years. 50 years. 

Katie: Yeah. It's so hard to say what she should have got, but I definitely think 10 is not enough.

AJ: I think too, like if you were to reverse the roles, like if this was a black person who had entered a white person's home who was sitting on their couch, eating ice cream and shot them randomly, like, I don't think that person would have gotten only 10 years..

Katie: Yeah. That's what I think the fact that she was like a white cop super helped her situation. If it was the other way around that it wouldn't have been as good for an outcome for her. I feel.

Steff: That video just caught me off guard. Like it was so hard to watch and you can see, like, like AJ said, you can hear the people in the courtroom just sobbing.

Like, well, they feel bad Botham. Like the feel bad for maybe they feel bad for Amber. And they definitely feel bad for like, Botham's brother and his family. So once the trial was over, Alison Jean, Botham's mother talked to the reporters, and she said that the trial shows a lot of, a lot of corruption in the Dallas police department.

AJ: She also goes on to say that the crime scene was contaminated and that the Dallas police have a lot of dirty laundry to clean up. Like they feels like just because of the lack of. I guess the lack of respect for how it was handled in like how the crime scene was handled and how the trial went. She goes on to say that she said that 10 years is enough time for Amber and she thinks that it will get Amber to concentrate on what she did.

Steff: And maybe she can think about her actions and the Jean family filed a wrongful death suit to the apartment complex where Botham was living. Because of the faulty design work and the layout of the complex and the lack of signs that were in the apartment. The lawsuit also entails a street be named after Botham. 

And the street is to be called Botham Jean Boulevard. There's also a law has been passed called Bo's law. And this law entails that body cams must be on and recording when police officers in Dallas, Texas, are participating in any investigation. So the family also got that law to pass. There was some good news to this tragic story, but I don't thinkBotham's family will ever get the closure they need.

Um, I don't think 10 years was long enough for shooting someone for no good reason, because she was a Dallas police officer. I've kind of feel like the investigation was just.

AJ: I think it was done properly. I just think they went a little bit light on her with sentencing. 

Steff: Well, yeah, that's what I mean, like, I mean, it was done properly, but I feel like they kind of were more lenient on her because she worked with the Dallas police.

So I feel like trying to get her that the benefit of the doubt type thing, but I feel like she should've got more because she basically shot somebody for no fucking reason. Like why 10 years is like a slap in the face. I think it was 10 years she got in prison, but five years was non parole. So in five years she could be out.

Katie: I don't know if you have this, but also like April of this year, she back in court for an appeal. So she could get out. Her conviction could be overturned. 

AJ: An appeal, what is she appealing? She's lucky. She got 10 years. It could have been way more. She should be happy. So I don't feel bad for her at all.

Steff: After those text messages, after that, all that stuff, I like quickly changed my thoughts on her. Like maybe she, maybe she was at the wrong place at the wrong time or wrong apartment I mean, but like she didn't have no right to shoot him. He was like defenseless. 

Katie: Well yeah it was her mistake. It's not like she showed up somewhere that she was supposed to be.

She wasn't supposed to be there at all. Like it was her fucking mistakes. And she killed someone because of her mistake. Like it it's, yeah, it's really tragic. And I just feel like she should have been paying more attention. Obviously. I wonder if this wrongful death suit, because I feel like it's really not the apartment complex's fault, you know, that they have a very similar layout on every floor, but I mean, I wonder how that went down.

AJ: Well, they were saying that there was no signage that says like, no indication of what floor you're actually on. Like, there should be signs saying like you're on this floor and this floor as you go. But I'm like, but if she didn't realize the big red mat outside his front door, like she's not going to notice a sign on the wall either.

Katie: Actually, maybe that could be their point was like the cops had a hard time finding where he was because there wasn't signage. 

Steff: Even if the apartment was dark the hallways, usually in apartment hallway, there are bright aren't they, the lights are on normally. 

AJ: But also too, she, like she said that she parked, like she normally parks on a garage, like, or whatever level she's going to.

So the third floor, but this time she parked on the fourth floor as well. So obviously the parking garage didn't have any indication of what floor you're parked on either.

Katie: Or just like you said, that was just like autopilot. She wasn't looking around. She thought she knew where she was. So she didn't need to look at that kind of stuff.

Steff: I don't think it's an excuse. You were tired and you didn't know what apartment you were going in. I don't really don't think that. I don't think it's an excuse.

AJ: Well it's not an excuse to kill somebody for sure. 

Katie: No, it's definitely like an excuse to be like, oh, I thought that I was on the right floor. It's not an excuse to be like, well, I killed somebody for sure.

AJ: Like, I started out as a mistake. Yeah. You went to the wrong floor. And obviously when they interviewed all those other people who said they did a similar thing, like, yeah. They also went to the wrong floor. It's a mistake, but they also didn't kill somebody. So it's on her.

Katie: It definitely is. If it didn't take so long for the police to find it, because remember it said that they got lost as well. It maybe if they got there faster, then they could have saved him or something like that. There's no signage. You don't know where you are. It's a safety hazard for sure.

AJ: Like a bunch of factors kind of all coming together. But the biggest one was her.

Steff: Basically all I have on this crazy case. 

Katie: It could be another update episode with this one because of the appeal.

Steff: I don't really think that appeal is going to happen. I don't, I feel like she got 10 years. She needs to live with it. 

Katie: Well, she was obviously granted an appeal. I mean, a lot of people apply for appeals and don't get them, but she's in court to appeal it. So I feel like she did get an appeal. Right. But that's how that works.

Steff: Maybe, but I don't think she has a leg to stand on.

I don't really think .

AJ: What's her defense. I can't think of it. 

Katie: I guess it's just a hearing. It's not an actual appeal yet. So we'll see, definitely going to follow this one to see what happens. 

Steff: So that's the case on Botham Jean. If you like what you hear and you want to hear more cases like this, you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Family podcast or on Twitter at CrimeFamilyPod1..

Or you can go to our Facebook page at crime family podcasts. You can also email us at CrimeFamilyPodcast@gmail.com. 

Katie: See you next time. Bye.