S02E06: IN CONVERSATION WITH AMY BRYANT (DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AWARENESS PART 2)

Hey guys, welcome back to Crime Family! We hope you enjoyed part one of the domestic violence discussion that we had last week. And now in part two, we're very excited to have Amy Bryant on the show. So like I did say a little bit in the last episode, Amy Bryant is an expert on the topic of domestic violence.

Um, having been a victim of domestic violence in the past, she now has turned her experiences into a positive to help other people experiencing domestic violence. And she has created some domestic violence, recovery and trauma informed communications courses. One of which is called the dauntless series.

So one is Dauntless recovery and the other is dauntless communications. So we're going to talk to her a little bit about those courses that she has and where you can find them. And we're very excited to have an expert on the topic to come and chat with us. So without further ado, here's our interview with Amy Bryant.

So we are here with Amy Bryant, so we're very excited to have you on the show. So thank you so much for taking some time to talk to us. 

It's my pleasure. Thank you. 

So, um, I guess when I just started off, I just want to ask you like to tell us a little bit about yourself and like the work that you've been doing in the domestic violence advocacy space.

Sure. So, um, I have been very passionate about domestic violence. I've spent the last 10 years, uh, in criminal justice, um, four, with the local Sheriff's office. And four uh, as a probation officer, my specialization was in domestic violence and trauma. And so I got very frustrated, both as an officer, and then later as a PO that the resources were very much geared at, towards getting the victim out, getting the victim into stable housing, getting the, uh, assisting the victim in getting financially stable, and then all those resources were gone.

And so it was very frustrating because I felt like by the time that victim has the mental capacity to actually focus on making a recovery and rebuilding, uh, healthy boundaries and healthy, a healthy life, those resources to do that were gone. And so I left the criminal justice space in 2019, and I've spent about a year and a half working, um, researching and coming up with, um, a program that is debuting on October 1st, called "Dauntless" and dauntless means no longer able to be intimidated.

And that is something that I've found working with victims for almost 10 years is one of their biggest complaints is feeling that constant feeling of being made to feel small or being made, to feel worthless or being made to feel. Completely less than. And so I didn't want it to be about fear. Fear is actually a healthy thing that tells us when we're about to do something scary or dangerous or stupid.

So we don't want to be fearless, but we do need to be, and we have the right to live without intimidation. And so Dauntless is very much focused on recovery because experiencing trauma and experiencing domestic violence is not like a broken bone. It's not like you can set that bone. And in six weeks it's healed, it's all better.

And it's like nothing ever happened. You are a completely different person after experiencing significant trauma or experiencing domestic violence. And you can't go back to who you were. And that is what so much of the material is out there is kind of focusing on is how do you get back to who you were?

How do you get back to, you know, a sense of normal. And that to me is frustrating and it's almost disrespectful because there isn't a going back to that person is gone. That person was trained out of you and that person no longer exists. And so it's a matter of how, how do you take what has happened to you and own it and make it a part of your story.

And instead of allowing it to continue to control you and also continuing to repeat those same experiences. 

Wow. That was really powerful. Thank you for that. Um, it's a good, a good way to start off, um, everything. Um, so you and I, uh, have talked a little bit back and forth, um, just about, uh, domestic violence and stuff.

And I know that you had mentioned, um, that there's actually 14 types of domestic violence, um, where a lot of people only know, you know, probably a few if they were to name. Um, so if you just want to, like, did you just like briefly mention the 14, um, or some of the 14 that people might not be, um, aware of or know much about?

Sure. So let's, um, let's just run down through a couple of the most common ones outside of a physical abuse. Um, in my relationship, I was very upset, um, with my dad and with my brothers, because they kept telling me that I was in a domestic violence relationship and I was very angry and I was very offended because it's like, I'm not stupid.

I wouldn't stay with somebody who would hit me. And it wasn't until I had more training on what domestic violence was that I actually realized I had been in a relationship. And so some of the other key, uh, abuses that can happen, that aren't as well known as physical, which has gained a lot of attention since 1993 is emotional, mental, uh, financial, economical, digital, um, sexual. And those would be the top six that, um, most victims end up experiencing in some way or another. So we'll just go down through the list. Um, emotional and mental, uh, can go very much hand in hand. It is, um, a lot of features in that would be gaslighting, meaning you, the perpetrator is intentionally causing a reaction and then making the victim question themselves.

And so it goes back to a, uh, a play that was then later turned into a movie called the gas lighter and it takes place in the twenties, thirties. Where a woman was set to inherit a very large amount of money from a relative. And her husband was jealous because he was not allowed to have access to that money.

Um, and even if she died, he would still not have access to the money, but he would be able to take those millions of dollars if she was declared legally insane. And so this was before electric, uh, electric lighting. And so he would intentionally raise and lower the amount of gas in the lights, in the house.

And then when she said, wow, isn't it brighter in here? Or isn't it darker? It's so much more like it's different. No, it's the same as always. It's the same as always. What are you talking about? And then he actually recruited their friends and family into it to say, no, like there's, there's nothing wrong with the lights.

And so eventually he was able to get her declared legally insane.. Because of what he was intentionally causing. And so you'll see this a lot with, um, where the abuser will take a hot button issue, whether that's fidelity or finances or whatever. Um, any conflicts, no, it didn't go down that way.

You're remembering it wrong. You're blowing it out of proportion. Um, you didn't understand you misunderstood. And all of those things actually happened and they happened the way the victim remembers it, but the victim remembering it in that way, isn't helpful to the abuser because then they have to take responsibility for their behavior.

And so instead of taking responsibility and owning it, they make the, the victim question themselves. And so then immediately any problem is a misunderstanding of the victim, has nothing to do with the abuser. So those are the two biggest components for emotional and mental. Um, financial and economical also go fairly close together.

Uh, financial abuse is exactly what it sounds like. It's total and complete control of the finances, or if your abuser does not have control of the finances, then they are intentionally spending money or hiding, hiding, spending. So the victim never has the amount of resources that she believes or he believes they do.

So, um, this would be hiding it hiding spending. Um, in, in my circumstance, I was eight months pregnant and, um, was saving and stacking away as much as I possibly could against my maternity leave. And without my knowledge, that money was taken and, um, used to go party and drink. And so when I went to, um, went to start my maternity leave, I no longer had there, there was no money for me to be able to not work.

Um, economical abuse is limiting the limiting, the victim's ability to progress. So not allowing the victim to go to school, um, not allowing the victim to, uh, work to their, their worth or work to their level of education. No, you don't need to do that. No, that would be too expensive. No, that's not necessary.

No. Let me take care of you and let me take care of you, sounds wonderful. It sounds very loving and it sounds very sweet. Until you are having to ask permission to go get groceries, until you are having to ask for money to get gas, until you are having to ask for any of your privileges that you should be able to enjoy as an independent adult.

Because let me take care of you is really let me control you because if you don't have your own money, if you don't have access to your own money, if you don't have the ability to make your own money, then you are entirely dependent on the abuser. And that is the, the sole focus is that the abuser wants to be God. And they want to be the sole authority, the sole power and the sole opinion that matters.

Um, digital is using. Using digital means to, to control behavior. So this is, um, stalking on social media. This is, um, abuse around, um, the comments of others. Who was that person? Why were they, why were they commenting? Why were they liking your picture? Um, using, uh, like find my phone or friend tracker, friend locator to stalk you and you verify your location.

And, um, also, uh, if, if the victim owns a business, um, recruiting others to leave negative reviews, um, in order to, uh, to take away business, um, and I think stalking would be also the... the one of the more prevalent forms. Um, one in five women, I believe statistically experiences stalking. That can be done either through social media or, um, it graduate to, uh, physical and in-person, but something that is becoming more, more common that goes hand-in-hand with digital, um, is also sexual abuse.

Um, that is being coerced into doing sexual acts that you are not comfortable with. Um, that can be something as small as- to be perfectly frank- um, physicians that you're not comfortable with being filmed, um, being asked to send or take pictures all the way up to introducing new partners, um, that can be potentially harmful.

Um, and then also if the victim wants to leave the relationship threatening to, um, something that we are seeing a lot of is, uh, digital revenge, where the abuser or the ex, um, publishes any photos that were sent in, um, with the, with the understanding of privacy, uh, and publishing those to platforms like PornHub or all the way up to posting them on the person's Instagram or on the person's, um, social media accounts.

And, um, there are multiple states that have started moving against that and from filing misdemeanors all the way up to felonies. 

Yeah. And I guess as we progress in the digital age too, like more and more things like that, um, become more common. Right. Um, so I just wanted to ask you, so like, what are some warning signs um, like, uh, the victims like friends and family can be looking out for? If it might not be super obvious if they're not witnessing it, like, what are some warning signs for them to be aware? 

Typically, um, the, the victims who end up being targeted are very gregarious, very outgoing, um, because that attracts the, that attracts the abuser.

And so seeing personality changes, um, uh, seeing, um, sudden sudden shifts in communication where, as somebody who you used to hear from two or three times a week now, soon it's once a week, then it's once a month. And so that's that slow. The slow fade honestly, is what you want to be looking out for the changes in clothing.

Um, so most of the users will typically try to hide their tracks. Very few will actually target the face because obviously it's visible. Um, but somebody who would wear cute tank tops or spaghetti strap dresses, or, um, have no problems with short sleeves now is always wearing long sleeves is always wearing pants, um, is wearing high neck sweaters or high neck shirts, things that things that don't add up, uh, classic statements like, well, I'm sore because I fell I'm sore because I ran into a door knob.

Um, I once had one victim who had a, almost a five-inch brand on her arm because the, the perpetrator had taken her, um, her hair straightener and branded her arm with it on both sides. And, um, so just things that don't, that don't add up, um, being told, I can't talk to you. I shouldn't talk to you. Um, you're not healthy for me now.

Some of those things may be true. You know, you may have a genuine caring, um, caring partner who is seeing unhealthy patterns and is wanting to, to point those out. But the abuser again, wants to be the only authority and only opinion matters. And so he will slowly and methodically cut off. Um, any other means of support, um, friends, family, um, moving.

Uh, to an entirely different state where neither person or only that only the abuser has any form of a family. And then when you're listening to conversations, when that communication does take place and you were informed about any conflict, those key words, I misunderstood. It wasn't that big a deal. It was all me.

I blew it out of proportion. So those constant cues and okay. You know, obviously all of us have conflicts that it genuinely may be our fault, but when every conflict starts being owned only by one person or, you know, I was going to leave, I was going to break up, but it was my fault. I misunderstood. So I'm going to stay.

So those kinds of cues are really what you need to be paying attention for. Um, not being allowed to leave, not being allowed to go anywhere, having to ask permission. Um, Before that person was allowed to see someone or you're allowed to visit their home. Um, having to ask permission for money. Those are the things that you really want to be listening for.

Yeah. Um, it's good to know too for people, you know, cause like it's super.. Things that might not be super obvious. Right. So things just red flags that people might not think of. But so it's good to hear some, uh, some subtle things that might be uh,warning signs. Um, so I just also wanted to ask, um, like I know that there's often a cycle of abuse of people who are in abusive relationships sometimes like sometimes will become, or if they witnessed, you know, if they grew up in a, in a household with domestic violence, they will themselves, um, be in an abusive relationship, um, when they're older.

So I was just wondering like how often is the cycle, if you know, I'm not sure if you're aware, but how often is the cycle broken where like people don't, who are grew up in that situation don't end up going on to being an abusive relationship? Like, is that a common thing that happens or is there much, much more, more common than it just continues on.

That statistic isn't actually out there because the people who break the cycle, aren't having police contact. They're not very, they typically aren't doing any actions that would get those stats that would, that would capture those statistics. So it makes it really frustrating. Um, children, what I do have statistics on, what I do know is that children who witness domestic violence are, uh, 90% more likely to enter into a domestic violence relationship, whether that is as a perpetrator or as a victim, because, um, our, our brains are amazing things and they, they believe our brain believes however we survive.

The situation is right, because we're still alive, so obviously we did something right! And so that is why we unconsciously look for the model that we've seen. And so you'll hear frustration. I don't know why I keep doing this to myself. I know he's bad for me. Um, I don't know why I keep finding these guys. And that was because subconsciously the brain is looking for those cues and those behaviors and mannerisms, because that's normal, you have to, it takes active mental focus and training to, um, train yourself, to look for new cues, to train yourself that new is not dangerous and is not bad and is not going to hurt you.

One in three. Women have experienced domestic violence. One in four women have experienced severe physical domestic violence. And I believe it is one in five men have experiences have experienced domestic violence and one in nine men have experienced severe domestic violence. And those numbers go up dramatically for gay, transgender, bisexual, um, on both sides, both male and female, those, those statistics go up.

Um, increasingly the something that is very scary is the fact that if there is a gun present in the home would be likelihood of the victim in that relationship being murdered goes up by 500%. And that is what led to the Brady law and the Brady law governs whether or not someone accused of or convicted of domestic violence still has their rights, their second amendment, right to bear arms.

And if one in 15 children are exposed to domestic violence, uh, during, in Colorado, um, under our, our bond laws for domestic violence cases that, um, so it's a, a screening is done, um, uh, based on what was present in the incident, whether, so it considers like past criminal history, it considers whether or not there was a weapon involved, whether or not there was any, um, signs or indicators of premeditation, uh, whether there was children in the home, children present, um, all these different indications that are designed to protect the victim by increasing bond.

So, that question alone, whether or not children were present is worth a total of five points. Um, the highest DBSI I think I ever conducted as a, as a probation officer was over 30 points, um, based on the criminal history and other factors. So there, there are things in place, um, to protect the victim. Once they find the report, because typically the victim has experienced domestic violence at least six times before they finally contact law enforcement.

Well, yeah, I feel like that's yeah, pretty common thing. They won't go to law enforcement right away if ever. Right. And if they do after a long, long time. Um, so I also wanted to ask, um, what are the statistics like for women or men, um, victims of domestic violence to return to their abuser after trying to escape?

I imagine it's probably pretty high. Like once they do leave, it's not a permanent thing. 

No, actually, um, there's a, a roughly agreed upon timeline. Um, following the, following the arrest. Okay. Within 24 hours, the perpetrator has made contact with the victim. Within 48 hours, the perpetrator is, uh, has gone past the, um, I'm so sorry, please forgive me to drop the.

And drop the restraining order so I can come home. And within 72 hours, the victim has agreed to stay with the perpetrator and that relationship will be continuing. And so once the victim decides to leave, whether that is, um, as a result of law enforcement contact, or if that is a result of, um, his or her own decision, then the next 90 days to 120 days is going to be the most dangerous time for that victim. Even more so from when they were in the relationship because the abuser is going to do anything they can to either exert power and control to get them back, or they are going to bust out all of the romance and all of the, "I am so sorry, please forgive me, please come back".

And also all of the family and peer pressure that they can to restore that relationship and restore that level of power and control over the victim. And so that can range from legal control, um, uh, filing, revenge filing for custody for kids, um, trying to kick the person, um, take financial control if they hadn't already empty accounts, freeze credit cards.

Um, literally do absolutely anything possible to, to bring that victim back. So, because the goal is re-establish power, re-establish control. And so the moment the victim makes that decision starts that timeline. And that is why it is imperative to, for friends and family, regardless of whether or not you've lost steady contact, to be ready to jump. When they, when he or she finally says, "I'm done, I'm ready to go". Please be ready to jump because you have 24 hours. You have 24 hours to help get that person out, get that person away and help them be brave enough to cut off means of contact from that abuser because they're going to be creative.

They are going to come up with fake accounts on social media to try and reestablish contact. They're going to come up with fake phone numbers. They are going to try and reach out to mutual friends. It's ridiculous. But helping that victim have the power and the confidence to say no and to block off those means of contact is, is absolutely imperative.

So an episode that we had done before this about Jennifer Magnano. So it seemed in her case, like she kind of did everything right as a victim. She was eventually able to leave her husband, she took her kids, um, and like left the state. And, but ultimately because of the law and these loopholes, she had to like come back and basically move into his house.

Cause he was going to get custody of the kids and she tried to file a restraining order. So are there things out there to protect victims like that? Maybe there is no proof that, you know, physical proof, it's just her word against his, like what is there to protect someone in like a case like that where she doesn't have anyone on her side except herself and her kids?

Right. Um, document, document, document, document, document. And I'm ...I'm.. That.. It sounds facetious. It really does. That is the biggest thing that you can do to protect yourself every nasty voicemail, record it, download it every threatening text message, take a screenshot, put it in a secure place. Do not leave it on your phone.

Um, have a secure, like a secure Google drive or a, a tablet, a secure place, a secure storage for all of that documentation. Um, dates and times on this date at this time, this happened on this date at this time, this happened, um, record every single interaction, actually look up your, your state law on recording.

Um, some states have to be two party informed, meaning both parties have to be aware they're recorded for it to be admissible in court. Colorado is a one party state, meaning only one party has to be aware that it is being recorded and do nothing. Absolutely nothing by yourself. If you have to do a custody exchange, great.

Let's meet at the police department. Let's meet at the fire department. If you have to do an exchange at school, or both of you show up to a school meeting, take a friend with you, take someone with you every single time so there is a third-party to say, "no, this happened". And the more your documentation you can compile and... harassment in Colorado is extremely broad.

It is anything stated with the intention to alarm offend or cause concern. And so that's very, very broad and there's a ton of very lovely names that we women get called on a regular that would fall under harassment. So document it, report it, um, annoy the  police. I am a cop's daughter and I was an officer for a while and I say that in all seriousness, because the more documentation and the more reports you have filed to show a pattern of behavior, the stronger your case is going to be. 

Yeah. And that's so important too. And I know, again, in Jennifer Magnano's case, like she was often calling the police. She was saying like, "I need to go back to the house".

"I need someone to do a house check. I need to make sure he's not in the house." They would come...

 right. 

 ...didn't even check the full, you know, there was the basement apartment that he was actually in, but they didn't check that. So I feel like the police also dropped the ball a lot too in her case specifically, but she was also, she was, you know, calling the police, making sure that she was always like getting their assistance as much as she possibly could.

And there was a lot of different times when they just wouldn't help her to the best of their ability. I dunno, they just dropped the ball. And of course it led to, um, what it led to, which was horrible. Yeah, very important to, you know, make sure always when you said annoy the police, you know, I think that's an important... 

Something that's also a hard as a victim because every instance is serious to you, but it is hard for law enforcement given the extremely high statistics of failure to prosecute, of failure to follow through of a failure to cooperate with prosecution because of how high those statistics are by nature of the beast.

It, it is just being completely honest. It can be very hard for law enforcement to treat every incidence with the seriousness that it requires because, oh, great. Cool. This is the ninth time we've been to this house in the last two months. So she'll cry. He'll yell. Um, somebody goes to jail and then we'll be here next week.

And so when you, when you were on that ride as, as a victim or your, your loved one is on that, ride, it can be extremely frustrating and feel like law enforcement doesn't care or nobody's paying attention or nobody's listening when in fact they are, but it's hard to know which one out of the, there is one domestic..., there's one call placed to a domestic violence hotline, 20,000 times a day.

And domestic violence calls are a, one of the most dangerous for police to respond to. But B I believe last time I looked made up for almost one in three, if not one in five of total calls for police. Okay. And so that is one of their most common things. And so like any of us, the things that we do the most often are usually the things that we eventually pay the less attention to.

And so keeping that in mind is can be very hard, but the more present you can be as a victim and or as a family members for that case, the more attention your case is going to get if only to make you go away. But the squeaky wheel, we all gets the, gets the grease and that's as true in business as it is in criminal justice.

And so being present and doing everything that you can to cooperate and follow through will get you a successful prosecution. 

Yeah. And that's like, if, like you said, if they, the squeaky squeaky wheel gets the grease, if even if they are doing it for the wrong reasons, they're just wanting to get rid of you so to speak, you know, like they just want to like, have you stop calling them at least they're doing it. Right. Like, if that's what it takes, they're going to get you out of, you know, help as much as they can to get you out of that situation. So even if it's not for the right reason, it's still going to cause the right result in the end

So there's like once there's a lot of resources out there for women and men that are able to get away or, you know, once they figure out what is out there, like there's obviously lots of barriers from them to getting into like a shelter.

For instance, like if a woman is taking her entire family, they don't have room. Like, what are the most common barriers that people face when they do try to get away from these situations? 

Honestly, you're going to laugh, but pets, um, pets and they had their pets... Well, because for, so for so many victims that pet has become an emotional support animal or, um, I've even had victims where that animal actively guards the victim against the, against the abuser.

Um, and so that is a lifeline and so many, many victims won't leave unless they can take her animal with them. 

There's probably threats, like "I'll I'll kill the dog, you know, if you've got."

 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll take it out on whoever. And so, as, as friends and family, that is one of the biggest things that you can do to help facilitate them leaving is allowing them to bring their pets or taking their pets while they are able to go to a shelter.

That is one of the biggest things that you can do to support. Um, so that way they can still have access to the animal without having to surrender them to a shelter and have them be adopted and never see them again. Um, another is whether or not they're able to take their children and, or the age of the children.

Um, some shelters are equipped to handle infants. Some shelters are not, um, some shelters are equipped to handle children or persons with special needs, some are not. Um, so those are the two biggest factors. Um, another is unfortunate, but realistic is funding. Whether or not the shelter has, uh, the, the physical room as in the actual room for housing or at workplace before the, the victim and children, um, or the ability to support them as an, the funding to put them up into a shorter long-term hotel or shorter long-term Airbnb.

Um, those are the biggest factors that typically just stand out now, something that we didn't discuss, but I think it was worthy of note is, um, up to 45% of women of ethnicity, um, black, Hispanic, other minorities, um, experience domestic violence. And that jumps from one in three, one in four to one in two.

And that is also, they also have a, I think 60%, more likely chance to experience severe physical abuse instead of just mental, emotional, and some of that is cultural. Some of that is, um, you know, this is, well, this is just how it goes. And it's more accepted as just being a part of life. Um, but regardless, it's not acceptable for any person to be, to be abused or to be, um, become a victim.

Um, but also in, in those, in those areas, resources can be even more limited. And so that also impacts their ability to leave. And there are, um, the financial control is also usually more present, so they have to be willing to walk away with literally nothing, but sometimes a trash sack full of clothes and what they can grab in five minutes.

And so the ability to leave and survive with what you can take in five minutes is very daunting. Especially if you're trying to run with your kids.

You know, it's much, it's a much different situation when you're in a city and you're trying to escape, you know, there might be lots of shelters nearby, lots of more resources, but if it is someone in a rural community and even just like logistical things of like, if they don't have a vehicle, you know, and they're in a more rural area, they don't have access to that vehicle.

Like where are they going to, you know, almost feel like where are they gonna go if it's a rural versus like, if it's just, you know, in a huge urban center or something where it feels a little bit more like, um, Easier, I guess, to access certain services, but also wanted to ask too, like, I feel like finding which services are available to you is one thing and then actually accessing them is a different thing. So I was just wondering, like, there are so many barriers, like the shelters that are full or can't accommodate the family situation. So I feel like there's two different things. You have to first find the resources that are there and then it's like accessing them.

Right. It's two steps. If not more, um, something that I would, uh, direct to.. I can't say all, cause I haven't talked to you all, but most agencies are going to have a person or organization called the victim advocate. Um, and that is their, their entire job to help victims go through the prosecution process and to help them tap into resources.

So that would be my first stop. Um, and also talking with large churches, um, because large churches are going to have their, their fingers on multiple resources, um, from food to, um, uh, crisis or unplanned pregnancy resources to um, housing, utility assistance. They're going to have their fingers on that pulse very quickly.

And I know faith can be uncomfortable for many people because of their own experiences, but, um, large churches are also typically staffed Monday through Friday versus your more rural churches that are going to have limited staff, um, or Sunday only. And so those resources are a little bit easier to come by.

Another place to start is honestly contacting social services, because even if you were leaving and you have no access to finances, you are going to qualify for aid. You are going to qualify for food stamps. You are going to qualify, um, possibly for TANF temporary assistance for needy families, um, which is financial support.

Um, you are going to qualify for multiple classes, including, um, including jobs, coaching, interview, coaching, um, assistance with housing. Accepting welfare accepting assistance. Um, living with family and friends that is better than coming home in a coffin. If it comes down to that because your children can not eat your pride.

And that is something that I had to get over. I left with nothing, but what I could put in my truck, um, putting it put in a moving van, I had no job. I had no savings. I had a five week old newborn and a two-year-old and had to drive 15 hours from San Antonio back to Colorado. And I was proud. I was stubborn.

I didn't want you to, I didn't want to accept that I needed welfare. Um, because I was educated. I was independent. I was all those other words, but when it came down to it, um, formula is still almost 30 bucks a can. And that can doesn't last a week, not to mention the diapers, not to mention everything else.

And. Don't let pride stop you from reaching out to resources or reaching out to people who want to, and can help you because you don't want to say why you need the help. It doesn't matter. All of us, at some point in our lives are going to go through a struggle are going to go through hard times and that doesn't, it makes you human.

It doesn't make you less. It makes you a human.

 I think, yeah. Further to that point, kind of. Men, maybe admitting that they're being abused by, um, like their woman partner is maybe even harder for them just because that whole stigma around men are supposed to be tough, you know, that kind of thing. So what are the stats of men that are a victim of domestic violence and what do you think they actually are? Because a lot of them probably don't come forward. 

So, statistically reported one in four men have experienced domestic violence, one and nine men have experienced severe domestic violence. I would say that's a little, probably closer to, I say one in four, um, and is, is probably pretty spot on, um, because that is ever, that's not in their current relationship that is ever, um, and one, I would probably say one in six have experienced severe domestic violence, but don't report it.

Um, something that you do see more prevalent with female offenders. Is one they've already been abused. And so they decide they are going to be offensive and control the relationship because they're tired of being somebody else's punching bag or doormat. Um, but also something that is more common. Um, I think for females than males is the destruction of property.

Um, so female offenders will, um, a classic is pouring bleach on clothes or bleach on belongings, um, burning stuff, smashing stuff. Um, the whole, uh, the cheating video with Carrie Underwood is a classic. My, my husband and I were just discussing that, um, that video represents probably at least six felony charges.

Criminal mischief the damage to property and, oh my goodness. And it ended up not even being the dude's truck, you know, she, but I think culturally it's very interesting because women, the female audience applauds that, oh, he deserves it. He deserved that, he shouldn't have done that. But if a man was doing that to a woman's car, totally different story. So we have to be aware as women that there's also a double standard for us. The, I went crazy on his bleep or, you know, I showed him a lesson. He's not going to do that to anybody else. You poured bleach on all of his jeans, you poured bleach and all of his belongings on his bed. You burned his bed, men aren't I would say probably less than one in five, one in six would actually report that instead of just saying the girl is crazy and moving on, because that's kind of what we it's the pattern or expectation. I think that we've set for men is that they're supposed to take it and move on. If, when, if the roles were reversed, that would be automatic criminal charges.

And so we have to be aware of that double standard and not try on purpose to exercise it in our favor. That's, that's being a perpetrator and we have to be honest and own it for what it is. 

That's a good point. Yeah. When you think of like a woman doing that, it's like, oh, you're standing up for yourself. Like you go. But like, it's really, it really shouldn't be like that. Like, like you said, if a man did that, then it would be like, well, that's obviously abuse. So yeah. That's a good point that I kind of never really thought of. 

Yeah. Um, I had, I had two clients who were. Um, who were together and she ended up filing for domestic violence on each other, and both of them were arrested.

Both of them were charged. Both of them were prosecuted. And, um, she had damaged his property. So he physically picked her up and bodily threw her out the door onto the front yard. And so both of them are charged. She was charged for criminal, um, criminal mischief. He was charged for harassment and third degree assault, even though he didn't hit her.

And that was something he was very upset about. I didn't even hit her. I didn't even hit her. Um, but third degree assault also includes unwanted touch. You know, I can poke you if you say "ow!" And call the cops and say that caused you pain. You didn't want it. That's third degree assault in the state of Colorado. You really have to be aware. Um, don't make decisions when you are hungry, angry, sad, you know, don't make relationship decisions, um, when not just when you're under the influence of substances, but when you're also under the influence of strong emotion, it's not going to go well, it's just not, let's be honest. 

Yeah. That's, that's, that's a good tip as well for our listeners. Um, I did want to ask, um, I don't know if there's any of the statistics out there yet about this. Um, but how is COVID-19 affecting, um, domestic violence? Cause I know there's probably, you know, there's maybe less resources. They are taking less, you know, half capacity or something like for shelters or something like that. So it might be less services available or like, you know, victims might feel they have fewer places to go if they were to escape. So is there statistics out there on that or...

contactsNot yet. Not yet. Um, we know that domestic violence has, has greatly increased, um, during COVID-19. Um, but we also know that reporting has gone down considerably because, um, if you are on lockdown, you can't leave.

So you have to, you, the, the, the victim is in the position where even if I call, I have to stay, I can't go to somebody else's house, regardless of whether or not that information is factual. That is the, that's the belief that, that is there. And also that, um, The collateral contacts that would normally exist, um, for outside sources to report to outside sources, besides the police, um, contacts of school, contacts of the doctor's office contacts of the hospital contacts at, um, the therapist or, um, even something as simple as talking to somebody at the store is like, Hey, you know, you don't seem like you're okay. I just wanted to, I just wanted to check and make sure you're all right. Or, um, you know, those, those incidental contacts that ended up being the tipping point for that person, those weren't happening. And so those collateral contacts and those collateral reports stopped coming, or it was one for every 10, one for every 15, um, for the in-person versus telehealth appointments.

And if your abuser is standing just off the camera, you're not going to say no, I don't feel safe. Um, No, this, this, this bruise or this mark is from such and such. It's not a fingerprint. Um, that's not a hand print, so there's, there's, the reports went down, but we know that the incidents went up. 

But yeah, like with, um, like with lockdown and stuff, people feel a lot more isolated and like, what are you going to do? You report it and then you have to stay in the house with that same person that you just reported, like it's not gonna happen. Right? So, yeah, sure. I think once statistics do come out, um, obviously it's only been a year and a half, so maybe in like another year or two, there'll be, you know, actual statistics getting released but it's probably going to be staggering to see the increase I would imagine. 

Yeah. And you also have, um, extreme added pressures. You have the lack of lack of money. Um, lack of access to other resources, um, increase in depression, increase in anxiety, um, increase in substance use. Um, The lack of ability for outside sources, for relaxation going, not being able to go to the gym. Um, some places not even able to go outside to go for a walk. Um, so the, the ability to, to access those, um, typical forms of stress release went away also. And so that also was going to play a major factor.

 I think that's a good point. Like I never thought of kind of being stuck in your house, kind of the stress that kind of puts on someone to boil over the edge.

Maybe like, yeah, you don't, you can't go out with your friends to blow off steam. You can't go to the bar, have a drink, you can't do that stuff. So maybe people that would never, you know, had been in a situation before, like a domestic violence, like they're like put over the edge now, so, and that's where it starts.

So yeah, I never thought about that. 

Well, and so you have to think, um, the, the domestic violence cycle, um, goes from... you have, you have the honeymoon period, which is the romantic period. It is. Um, it's also called love bombing where the, the perpetrator absolutely saturates the victim. Um, over the top gestures over the top flowers, romantic dates, love letters, notes cards, the whole nine yards.

You know, this is the most amazing person ever. Oh my gosh. What you're listening for is when you no longer hear that, because that is the tension building or the eggshell phase, when it's, this doesn't feel right, like what's wrong, what's wrong. Oh, okay. I'm just going to sit over here. Don't let you do that.

And so that eggshell phase can last for a very, very long time. And then you are going to have a couple of minor incidents and then you're going to have the explosion and then you're going to have a period of remorse and then it starts all over. And sometimes it doesn't always follow that cycle. Um, exactly.

But you are going to see the same pattern, start repeating over and over again. But the time in between is going to get shorter and shorter and shorter until, um, the remorse phase could only be hours instead of days or weeks. And the love bombing phase is microscopic also. And until finally it's almost a perpetual existence of eggshells and it's nothing else it's just eggshells and blow up.

And then it's my fault again. And so if you're trapped in a house with that, with all that extra stress on top, then it is literally just walking from an explosion to explosion and hoping you get to sit down at some point. 

So if you're in a situation where it kind of a blow up, does happen, is it almost guaranteed to happen again? Or could it just be like, that was just, you know, like a one-time like we all just needed to do these stressed, the whole house blows up on each other. Is it likely that that was just like a one-time thing? Or probably it might happen again.

 That depends on a lot of different factors. Um, because you will have some people who say they get extraordinarily drunk and do something completely out of character. Um, and they have their oh, crap moment. Um, that, that happened. I am so sorry. And it's their oops. So we call that the, oops, you know, your person who gets a one time DUI, but is otherwise has no criminal history. That's your oops person. Um, law enforcement, um, and emergency services deal with about five to 10% of the population, 90% of the time.

So we are going to have those unicorns. We are going to have the oops people, but, uh, think about that initial incident as taking the lid off. Okay. If y'all have a pot, that's boiling, you take the lid off the first time, and then you put the lid back on the water only maybe went down a grand total of five to 10 degrees, but it stays there.

Your oops person dumps the water out. Your, I don't want to say career.. But without help, without intervention and without behavior change, no it's going to happen again. And it's not going to be the only time. I, as a probation officer, I saw recidivism for domestic violence is higher than almost any other case outside of substance use or substance charges.

Um, because the person you're not just battling, um, the behavior, you're also usually battling substance, you're battling mental health, you're battling, um, modeling what that person has experienced growing up. And so that is an awful lot of work and an awful lot of dedication in order to change that consistent pattern of behavior.

Um, it takes work. It takes a lot of work and it really comes down to the person whether or not that perpetrator is willing to put in the work to change the behavior. Or if this works for me, I get what I want. I get what I want when I want it. And sometimes I have to deal with. You know, those, those, those cops, the court chain, like, Ugh, but everybody has to do that. And there's that very skewed version of what normal is. And so, yeah, that's, that's a repeat behavior. 

Oh yeah. Um, I mean like that, um, the pot analogy that you used. Thank you for that. 

So it's this other question, like, I've kind of came to my mind when you were talking about kind of substance abuse, kind of how like domestic violence is like a gateway drug, as opposed to, um, like any sort of actual substance, like talk a little bit about that.

Sure. So, um, what we are starting to learn with female offenders, I dunno, starting to learn, or if it's just becoming more prevalent, the research, um, the research is changing, um, but with female offenders specifically, um, up to 90% of them have experienced significant trauma and or some type of abuse. And up to, I believe 65 to 70% of male offenders have also experienced trauma and, or some type of, um, abuse in their history in combination with mental health.

So if you go back to the pot analogy, um, if you've experienced domestic violence, or if you experienced a significant trauma, like we talked about at the beginning that doesn't go away. That stays that stays a part of you and unless you receive help and resources in order to address it, that's why, um, that's why I use the recovery model versus healing.

Um, that temperature in that pot is going to stay higher than your average person. Um, you have ACEs, adverse childhood experiences. Um, those can be abused in the home. Those can be witnessing abuse, those can be, um, being exposed to toxic environments. Um, and so those, those experiences happen as, uh, as a child or, um, if you have experienced domestic violence as a teenager, 17 to 24, um, that pot is going to be about a hundred to a hundred and ten.

And then you pile another relationship or another stressor on top of that. Now we're up to about 115. And so it takes a long time to get to 115. It takes 15 minutes to get to 120 and boiling and maybe five minutes after boiling for that pot to be boiling over. And you have collateral damage on others around you.

And so you have to consciously and intentionally learn how to empty your pot and how to take your lid off if you've experienced domestic violence, or if you've experienced trauma. Um, you have to learn how to identify your triggers and separate your reactions versus your responses. Um, a really good example.

Um, I was in a horrific car accident in 2015. Um, I shattered and dislocated my hip and I was in a, a wheelchair for almost four months.  And I was carpooling  with an attorney that worked with me at the courthouse and I had nodded off and was just doing the Friday, Friday commute doze in the, in the passenger seat.

And all of a sudden he, uh, he had to slam on the brakes and we were in a small car. It was a civic and I'm six feet tall. And my knees hit the dashboard. And I woke up screaming because that was a trauma reaction because slamming on the brakes, the followed by, uh, impact on my knees meant I wasn't gonna be able to move my legs.

And I was going to be in pain, et cetera, et cetera. And I was very angry with him because he just looked over at me and he said, don't you think you're exaggerating a little bit. It's not that serious. And I felt very diminished. And I feel very minimized because the first thing out of my mouth was, well, that's nice you haven't experienced it. And so we have to be aware with both ourselves and with others that when a reaction is out of proportion to the stimulus, then that means there's something else there. And just because you can't see it, or just because you don't know it does not make it less valid. And so as victims, as survivors, I hate the word victim, as survivors and as overcomers, we have to have grace with ourselves and not judge ourselves for not knowing the information at the time. You have to be patient and you have to give yourself grace to move forward with the recovery process, because there's going to be things that trip you up. There's going to be things that, that jump out at you that you weren't expecting, that you weren't prepared for. It was Friday. I was all I was wanting was to go home, take a nap, have some pizza and go to bed.

And it they're never expected. They're never planned for, but the more you identify them, the more you identify your, your drug in the gateway drug, um, the better able you are to give yourself grace and to give yourself time to respond and to identify who it is you're speaking to versus who you are speaking to in your head or what you were hearing in your head because of your experiences. 

So, um, dauntless is, can be found, um, on the infinite women's network platform. Um, and also on the mastermind platform, dauntless is again, a recovery class, um, specifically focusing on victims who are 60 to 90 days out from leaving or more. Um, we. We go through the domestic violence cycle, the power and control cycle, the, um, narcissist impact cycle.

Um, and then we also spent some time, um, talking about gas lighting, talking about how to relearn personal responsibility, because when you spend the majority of your relationship being blamed for everything, it changes your expectations and warps your expectations of yourself and others, which impacts not only your personal relationships, but also your professional ones.

Um, then we move into goal setting and how to set healthy boundaries, how to set healthy goals and what it takes to build your confidence. And then the last piece of that I think is the most important is tackling comfort bias. Uh, comfort bias is the psychological term for, um, seeking out what we are already familiar with or seeking out what we know.

And so that is what constantly has you repeating a domestic violence cycle in your relationships. And so how do you address that? How do you deal with that and how do you train yourself out of it? Um, and then I've also written dauntless professional, which is helping, helping businesses, uh, recognize trauma reactions at work.

Um, and those trauma reactions, um, Instead of saying, oh my gosh. So Katie is completely psycho and I have no idea what just happened, Katie is not acting like herself. So I'm just going to go hide in my cubicle because Katie's psycho. It flips the script to say, Katie, as your manager, I know this isn't you, I know this isn't how you work. So what do you need right now? And that turns the conversation from being a discipline issue to a coaching issue and a performance, how do we help you in your professional performance overcome this? Because. Uh, especially women who have experienced trauma end up doing one of two, one of three things.

So either become a very dominant personality. Um, I've been pushed around too long. I never want to be pushed around again. They adopt a  very submissive personality. If you can't see me, I don't exist. Just ignore me. And then you become the blend. Who's usually the stuffer and the stuffer is the person who stuffs it down and stuffs it down stuffs it down, stuffs it down.

Oh my goodness, my pot is boiling. And so you're going to have those personalities at work. And you're going to see that more often at work, because that is one of the only areas that, um, the the victim feels that it is okay to perform. And it is okay to perform to their best of their ability because they don't have somebody in their ear telling them that they can't.

And so as managers is, how do you recognize those performance patterns and as line level, how do we help our coworkers through those performance and communication issues and make it a productive environment instead of a, um, a discipline and a judgment environment? Because all of us are walking wounded, one in three women, that's 33%, one in  four men.

That's 25%. If 70% total of Americans have experienced trauma that's 70% of your workforce. And it's time to stop pretending that our personal lives and our professional lives don't intersect because they do. 

Um, so is there like, um, is there like a link to the, the online course and stuff that people can check out? Cause we can put that in the show notes, um, for people to check that out. Okay, perfect. And we can put it in the show notes and then our listeners can check it out. Cause it sounds like definitely important, important course and information to have for sure. 

Yes. Thank you so much. Is there, is there any other questions that I didn't ask or I didn't say, I know I've talked a lot, so I'm sorry.

Um, but is there, is there anything that, that I can answer for you that I didn't already? Cause I talked so much. 

Um, no, I love, I don't have to apologize for talking. It was, it was great. I really, you know, so, so much information and so much like helpful information and like statistics thrown in there and just like a good discussion. So thank you for that. I didn't have anything further. Um, you pretty much answered like a lot of the questions that I had. Um, so unless Katie, if you have something, 

no, I don't have anything further. I think I, everything I was thinking of you kind of answered as you went on, so it's like, yeah. Saved me from having to say anything.

Yeah. But thank you. I definitely learned a lot and I could see things from like a different perspective for sure. 

So something that I would like to talk about briefly, um, with Jennifer's law in particular is that, um, there is a difference between extortion, blackmail, and coercion. And so those differences are subtle.

Um, and, um, and the domestic violence world, but they're very, those differences are very important. Um, so blackmail and extortion, um, are sometimes used interchangeably, but that is the exchange. That is an exchange. So you do this, I get this usually it's money. Usually it is, um, photos or property or whatever. And so it is controlling the victim via an exchange. Now coercion is control. So it is the perpetrator is intentionally trying to control or influence the victim's behavior. And so it's not an exchange. It's not a quid pro quo. You do this, I do this. It is, I want to control your patterns. I want to control what you do.

And so, um, Jennifer's law is a federal law that now includes coercion as an act of domestic violence. And that is huge because that can finally be used. You know, they're making me do it is, is, is real. You know, he is making me do it. He is making me say this. He is making me do this. And that is finally prosecutable, which is huge.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good that you added that in there too. Cause yeah, we did speak about Jennifer's Law a little bit. Um, like when we talked about the Jennifer Magnano case, because that played a huge, a big role in Jennifer's law so yeah. That's good that you added that in there. Um, yeah. And that is a huge, a huge accomplishment and a huge, you know, a positive of course for that.

So yeah, absolutely. And so some, some common behaviors that fall under that is, um, like witness intimidation. You, you have to tell them to drop this. You have to tell them to make it go away. Um, you know, Versus the, sometimes it's going to be explicit. You have to do this. And sometimes it's going to be a little bit more implicit.

And that is when, um, both the victim and the victim victims, advocates, you know, including family and friends have to say, this is why this is happening. This is how this has happened in the past. And that's where it really goes back to your documentation. If you are saying, this is why he's doing this, you have to be able to back that up because otherwise we are back to, he said, she said, nobody cares because you can't, it's not admissible in court.

Wow. That was a really good, really good discussion. And there's, we could go, like, we could talk for so long about this topic because there's so there's so much yeah, I know. I know there's so many, you know, like such a huge, huge, broad topic. There's so many different avenues we could explore. Um, but I was very that... yeah. Thank you so much for like, gives you so much knowledge about the topic and like, it was so interesting hearing what you had to your perspective. 

Thank you. And thank you for having me. This is, um, this is my baby. This is something that I'm very passionate about and I'm tired of seeing it destroy lives when it is entirely preventable. And, um, I will give my last breath to help survivors become overcomers. A survivor: this happened to me and I want to move on and they don't know how. And so those are the people that I serve. Those are the survivors that every single person who is a survivor is capable of being an overcomer. 

Wow. Yeah. Thank you so much, uh, where we were so happy that you agreed to come on the show and, uh, talk to us. Cause you know, you definitely know a lot more about the topic than we did. It's good to have, you know, you on and you're the expert in this is very good. 

Thank you so much. All right, have a good one. Bye-bye 

What a great discussion we had with Amy. So thank you so much, Amy, for coming on the show, we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come on and chat with us about the topic of domestic violence. We really hope that you, as a listener, learned something from that discussion and we are very happy that we were able to have her on the show.

So thank you so much for listening guys. Again, you can follow us on all the social medias, Instagram @crimefamilypodcast, Twitter @crimefamilypod1 ,Facebook at Crime Family Podcast.. And you can email us at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com with all of your case suggestions, feedback, tips, anything you'd like.

So we hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll be back next week with an all new episode as well. Thank you guys so much and take care